Anyone else out there think that GE gets too much weight?

[Jeff Ream]

GE is the very reason why it appeals to spectators.

The drill design is GE, the way its done is execution

All the shimmering elements, timbres and colours from the front ensemble is GE, the way its done is execution, the way it contributes with the rest of the ensemble is music. etc, etc.

I think GE is and has always been the big selling point of DCI, the entertainment factor is what is important!

for instance: 1995 Cadets of Bergen County....that show had incredible GE...in lieu of their execution and music scores, everything that we liked about the show was GE...the cool drill moves, the swing dancing, the bass drum feature ala Gene Kruppa....

just think Madison without GE isnt Madison. or remember VK? GE is what got them into top 12, obviously supported by enough point in the other catagories.

A few judges I have talked with have always maintained "sure, its easy to get caught up with the audience...when they love something, its hard to seperate yourself from that excitement"

I also think the dci audience, although now diminishing, is more sophisticated to realize what has been done with exceptional execution in order to pull off the GE, if rifle lines perfectly execute their moves, when drumlines wow with visuals, etc.

if their GE was so great, then why were thet not contenders, especially VK?

[Jeff Ream]

Your comment was this: "all performance captions these days discuss way too much design", thus my comment.

How does shifting point values have one thing at all to do with what is 'discussed' by judges, assuming you are correct on that, which I'd need a lot of evidence to agree with.

look at the sheets in just about any circuit dude...the what gets as many points as the how, if not more.

[dciguy1999]

In general I think that most threads at DCP are pretty silly but this one is really interesting. I think it really speaks to the state of drum corps and what the marching/pageantry activity is all about.

In my opinion, if you really want to see things go in the right direction you need to start with the judging itself. DCI needs better judges. Most of the people that are out there judging are people that used to march drum corps and have very little experience in the "real" world as musicians. There are some great judges out there, but there are also some bad ones too. If we want drum corps to truely be a valuable musical and educational experience we need to find outstanding musicians and educators to be the judges.

ALSO, many of the judges are easily influenced or strong-armed by staff of drum corps. I have seen the staff from a particular drum corps threaten so many judges that it made me sick to my stomach. I have heard certian staff members tell jusges that they will never judge again if they dont have them winning horns by at least 4 tenths at the next show. I have also heard the same person threaten a judge by saying "I wil see you in the fall..." referring to judging his band at BOA and exacting his revenge. Tell me that is not harmful to the activity.

[Morgoth Bauglir]

I have recently felt the need to retract my pevious assertion, and say that GE is fine the way it is.

Marching ensemble such as drum corps and indoor drumline should be rewarded for performing challenging and entertaining shows. Clean for the sake of clean is a pretty poor way to approach anything. It leaves groups wide open to play and march with as little demand as possible. This sets the stage for shows that are not fun to play or march in or watch.

I would rather see a crazy fast show with lots of notes, and a litle dirt, than an easy, tame show played immaculately.

[brakedrum]

if their GE was so great, then why were thet not contenders, especially VK?

think you missed the point...GE is what helped them to get them their placement...evidently their music and execution scores were really not up to paar!

[brakedrum]

In general I think that most threads at DCP are pretty silly but this one is really interesting. I think it really speaks to the state of drum corps and what the marching/pageantry activity is all about.

In my opinion, if you really want to see things go in the right direction you need to start with the judging itself. DCI needs better judges. Most of the people that are out there judging are people that used to march drum corps and have very little experience in the "real" world as musicians. There are some great judges out there, but there are also some bad ones too. If we want drum corps to truely be a valuable musical and educational experience we need to find outstanding musicians and educators to be the judges.

ALSO, many of the judges are easily influenced or strong-armed by staff of drum corps. I have seen the staff from a particular drum corps threaten so many judges that it made me sick to my stomach. I have heard certian staff members tell jusges that they will never judge again if they dont have them winning horns by at least 4 tenths at the next show. I have also heard the same person threaten a judge by saying "I wil see you in the fall..." referring to judging his band at BOA and exacting his revenge. Tell me that is not harmful to the activity.

I agree and disagree...most of the judges out there have much experience and 90% have "real world" experience as musicians, professors and instructors. They are well qualified, but at times staff needs to sell their ideas in critique to the judges and make them aware of what they should be listening for, etc. It is true that some judges enter the show with some numbers already in their head based on the name and experience level of the corps.

I have also seen where arrogant staff members of corps have also ###### off judges by threatening them and telling them off. obviously not good role models in the activity. There should be a "ban" system or an ethics committee set up for those who wish to be a prima donna. Marty Hurley (percussion caption head of Phantom from 197? to 1993) was forever a red flag after he actually physically attacked a judge in critique...he should have gone to jail and fired immediately. not to mention his percussion idealogy was always stuck in the early 80's and never progressed.

It is not an easy activity to judge and evaluate, due to the amount of things going on in each element of the presentation. DCI is always in motion with the rules of congress, audjudicating processes/trainings and outlining what is and is not essential to a fair evaluation.

[MikeD]

look at the sheets in just about any circuit dude...the what gets as many points as the how, if not more.

Hmm...I still think you are missing what I am asking....you wrote about what the judges SAY, and I asked how shifting point values around has any impact on that.

[dciguy1999]

I agree and disagree...most of the judges out there have much experience and 90% have "real world" experience as musicians, professors and instructors. They are well qualified, but at times staff needs to sell their ideas in critique to the judges and make them aware of what they should be listening for, etc. It is true that some judges enter the show with some numbers already in their head based on the name and experience level of the corps.

I have also seen where arrogant staff members of corps have also ###### off judges by threatening them and telling them off. obviously not good role models in the activity. There should be a "ban" system or an ethics committee set up for those who wish to be a prima donna. Marty Hurley (percussion caption head of Phantom from 197? to 1993) was forever a red flag after he actually physically attacked a judge in critique...he should have gone to jail and fired immediately. not to mention his percussion idealogy was always stuck in the early 80's and never progressed.

It is not an easy activity to judge and evaluate, due to the amount of things going on in each element of the presentation. DCI is always in motion with the rules of congress, audjudicating processes/trainings and outlining what is and is not essential to a fair evaluation.

I am glad you see what i am talking about as far as judges being influenced. I do disagree a bit on the level of quality though. there are some judges that are very good but most them are a bunch of no names that are mediocre musicians or teachers.

There are many of them that are not good enough to get on staff at a decent corps so they go out there and judge. When I was on staff at a D I corps I knew of a number of judges that asked every year if they could be on staff with us. And every year they would put us in first with the hope of making us happy and giving him a job....which of course never happened becuase liked them right where they were....scary huh?

On a related note I do think you are right about it being tough to judge corps and do it right. I would not be interested in that kind of stress.

[rut-roh]

I am glad you see what i am talking about as far as judges being influenced. I do disagree a bit on the level of quality though. there are some judges that are very good but most them are a bunch of no names that are mediocre musicians or teachers.

Kinda balances itself out when you consider the ratio is probably the same with the number of drum corps instructors who are no names and mediocre musicians and/or teachers. Such is life.

[dciguy1999]

Kinda balances itself out when you consider the ratio is probably the same with the number of drum corps instructors who are no names and mediocre musicians and/or teachers. Such is life.

You hit that right on the head...awesome!!!