rut-roh Posted May 3, 2006 Share Posted May 3, 2006 As for the best corps that night, well if exciting and dirty is the standard, then the best corps won. I love 93 Star as much as the next guy, but there was plenty of dirt in their visual presentation that night. So I guess it begs the question...did Star have more visual dirt or did Cadets have more musical dirt?? Good question. I prefer Star for many reasons, but I have to admit, the sour grapes thing I get from so many Star alum of that year is starting to wear pretty thin. It should be enough that hardly anybody talks about the 1993 Cadets in nearly the kind of glowing terms as the 1993 Star of Indiana, but I guess not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medeabrass Posted May 4, 2006 Share Posted May 4, 2006 I love 93 Star as much as the next guy, but there was plenty of dirt in their visual presentation that night. So I guess it begs the question...did Star have more visual dirt or did Cadets have more musical dirt?? Good question. I prefer Star for many reasons, but I have to admit, the sour grapes thing I get from so many Star alum of that year is starting to wear pretty thin. It should be enough that hardly anybody talks about the 1993 Cadets in nearly the kind of glowing terms as the 1993 Star of Indiana, but I guess not. I thought our show was pretty darn clean visually, especially the feet. The part that was disappointing though was about the last 1.5 minutes. Especially that scalene triangle/company front sequence in the last 30 seconds. Also, I thought our timing in some of the expressive movement could've been better. I'm not good at judging color guard so I can't speak for them. I do agree that the fact that it is still talked about so much (good or bad) has sweetened the grapes quite a bit. We must have been pretty clean (atleast that weekend) because we won visual in semis. We went from first in field visual in semis to 4th or 5th on finals night. I don't think our performance from night to night was all that different so I guess it's apples and oranges. I thought cadets worst part visually was the timing of their feet and their tendency to bounce (watch the plumes). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedalC Posted May 4, 2006 Share Posted May 4, 2006 I thought our show was pretty darn clean visually, especially the feet. The part that was disappointing though was about the last 1.5 minutes. Especially that scalene triangle/company front sequence in the last 30 seconds. Also, I thought our timing in some of the expressive movement could've been better. I'm not good at judging color guard so I can't speak for them. I do agree that the fact that it is still talked about so much (good or bad) has sweetened the grapes quite a bit. We must have been pretty clean (atleast that weekend) because we won visual in semis. We went from first in field visual in semis to 4th or 5th on finals night. I don't think our performance from night to night was all that different so I guess it's apples and oranges. I thought cadets worst part visually was the timing of their feet and their tendency to bounce (watch the plumes). I'll second Ben...we didn't lose a show all season in field visual - finals night we were 4th! Todd Ryan is still peeved. ;-) Sour grapes, indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rut-roh Posted May 4, 2006 Share Posted May 4, 2006 When comparing technique, it's important to remember that there is no universally "approved" technique. If there was, everyone would use it. Style still means something on the sheets. The judges have to evaluate Cadets marching technique against Cavaliers technique against Star of Indiana technique against Blue Devils technique.....and at the time, all 4 were different. Throw in Phantom and Madison, and you've got a couple more styles. Often, as performers, we get stuck in the mentality that whatever technique we've been taught is superior and everything else sucks. We hear it all the time...Cadets and BD vets ragging on Cavaliers marching technique. Star and BD vets ragging on Cadets marching technique. Star ragging on everyone else's brass technique. Don't even get me started on drumming. When it comes to these things, they're just different, that's all. Not necessarily better or worse. Just different. Also, it should be pointed out that visual performance also includes the color guard. Now you will not find a bigger fan of the 93 Star color guard than me. What they were asked to do was outrageous and daring and risky beyond belief. And they were GOOD. Probably Star's best ever. But that risk involved poles with no flags, plus other equipment and work that made it very very easy to see if things were perfect or not. When things were off even the slightest bit, it was glaring. The Cadets color guard, however, took the more traditional approach (minus the large broadswords), and were more succesful IMO in the area of excellence. At the time, I think the sheets were more weighted to reward what the Cadets were doing, so I think that needs to be taken into account. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rut-roh Posted May 4, 2006 Share Posted May 4, 2006 I'll second Ben...we didn't lose a show all season in field visual - finals night we were 4th! Todd Ryan is still peeved. ;-)Sour grapes, indeed. I don't have recaps from every show available, but here are two BIG shows where Star did not win Field Visual... July 30, 1993 Preview of Champions Prelims Cadets 9.2 Cavaliers 9.0 Star 8.9 August 19, 1993 DCI Quarterfinals Cadets 9.7 Star 9.5 There were also a couple regionals where they won by a tenth or two in that caption, so it's not like it was totally out of the realm of possibility for someone to beat them in that caption. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medeabrass Posted May 4, 2006 Share Posted May 4, 2006 I don't have recaps from every show available, but here are two BIG shows where Star did not win Field Visual...July 30, 1993 Preview of Champions Prelims Cadets 9.2 Cavaliers 9.0 Star 8.9 August 19, 1993 DCI Quarterfinals Cadets 9.7 Star 9.5 There were also a couple regionals where they won by a tenth or two in that caption, so it's not like it was totally out of the realm of possibility for someone to beat them in that caption. I know we lost at the mile high show that year. I think we were in third or fourth there. I can't speak for Sean but I was trying to counter your point that visual was a weakness for us. My point wasn't whether or not we should've won or lost field visual but that our execution was on par with Cadets in that sub-caption. I agree that there was some dirt there but I didn't feel it was any more than Cadets. In a lot of ways I was more happy with our visual performance than our brass performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rut-roh Posted May 4, 2006 Share Posted May 4, 2006 (edited) Actually, Star won Field Visual at Drums Along the Rockies that year, 9.1 to 8.9. And I really enjoyed Star's visual program that year. Loved it! I just think in terms of excellence, when you factor everything in (including color guard), the Cadets were cleaner visually. Varying degrees of excellence. Edited May 4, 2006 by rut-roh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medeabrass Posted May 4, 2006 Share Posted May 4, 2006 Actually, Star won Field Visual at Drums Along the Rockies that year, 9.1 to 8.9.And I really enjoyed Star's visual program that year. Loved it! I just think in terms of excellence, when you factor everything in (including color guard), the Cadets were cleaner visually. Varying degrees of excellence. agreed...I coulda sworn we got smoked in visual at that show...were there prelims there? Maybe we lost in overall visual or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rut-roh Posted May 4, 2006 Share Posted May 4, 2006 Star and Cadets tied for overall visual at DATR. The big spread came in GE Visual. Cadets 14.2, Star 13.3 There was also a big spread in favor of Star in the Music GE captions. GE Brass Star 14.8, Cadets 14.4 GE Perc Star 9.8, Cadets 9.4 Which kinda goes along with what I've been saying. Musically, Star had an edge on the Cadets and there really isn't much doubt there. Visually, as great and innovative as Star was, it was difficult to achieve the kind of excellence that Cadets had, and so I give the edge visually to the Cadets. In the end, you've got two shows that are competitively close in 1993. But as has been noted, it's 2006 and the amount of people who rave and bow down in worship to the Cadets show pales in comparison to the cult-like superstatus of 93 Star. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rd_Star_Brigade Posted May 4, 2006 Share Posted May 4, 2006 (edited) I thought our show was pretty darn clean visually, especially the feet. The part that was disappointing though was about the last 1.5 minutes. Especially that scalene triangle/company front sequence in the last 30 seconds. Also, I thought our timing in some of the expressive movement could've been better. I'm not good at judging color guard so I can't speak for them. I do agree that the fact that it is still talked about so much (good or bad) has sweetened the grapes quite a bit. We must have been pretty clean (atleast that weekend) because we won visual in semis. We went from first in field visual in semis to 4th or 5th on finals night. I don't think our performance from night to night was all that different so I guess it's apples and oranges. Visually, I thought Star was great. Better than the Cadets. All corps back then had similar dirt in the visual program. However, Star was ahead of its time, as far as cleanliness. There has been a big movement in reverence for corps programs and over-estamating the difficulty of corps' programs in the last 16 years that leads to the visual programs of today. Squeaky clean drill and music = world championship. I thought cadets worst part visually was the timing of their feet and their tendency to bounce (watch the plumes). Watch the Cadets every year and look at their upperbody... My biggest criticism of them, every single time. Edited May 4, 2006 by 3rd_Star_Brigade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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