I'm pretty worried right now...

[ChicagoFan]

Bush and Cheney could ask and even pressure the middle east to increase production, as other administrations have. They don't. Why not?

In a free market economy the government has no right or obligation to control price and/or production. To exert pressure on another nation, company or enterprise in order to satisfy our desire for lower fuel prices borders on blackmail.

[DrumCorpsFan27]

In a free market economy the government has no right or obligation to control price and/or production. To exert pressure on another nation, company or enterprise in order to satisfy our desire for lower fuel prices borders on blackmail.

So governments should just stand by and watch as the elements of inflation and depression take over the nation. They should do nothing to help the economy of their nation.

I have news for you, Bush/Cheneny imposed their will on what government should be in Iraq. Bush/Cheney told other nations after 9/11 "if your not with us, then you are against us." All in the name of our "free market democracy." Countries have always, and will always ask for and offer favors and deals. OPEC is blackmailing us by artificially creating greater demand and driving up prices. Individuals and drum corps on tight budgets have to pay the ransom.

[Medeabrass]

Im an econ prof at a University in Russia and have taught at Cornell, Rutgers and the Univ of Florida.

I lived in Israel for a year (very little arab oil going to Israel..count on that) and there is ALOT of hydrogen fuel cell being used from motorcycles to cars to busses to heating and cooling and powering an entire house. I looked into getting the same technology for my house in Florida and guess what? Its illegal to do so. If our politics/gov/business wasnt so intertwined with self interest we would be trying more alternatives. Israel uses wind/wave/thermal and many other options we simply dont try in the USA.

Several cities in Germany use fuel cell busses for public transport and fuel cell cars for their government vehicles. Its a viable, clean and cheap alternative. Thats the problem, no one has found a way to make a profit on it

When someone finds a way to make a profit on hydrogen you can bet it will catch on very quickly.

My Dad's a Doctor of Chemical Engineering and as I stated earlier, his belief is that these alternatives are usually not profitable because that in many cases they take more energy to create them than they actually produce. I hope that someone finds a practical solution to this (man where's cold fusion when you need it). Knocking the Oxygen atom off of a water molecule to create hydrogen isn't something that comes easily or cheaply, and you end up consuming more energy thus doing more harm to the environment in the process.

Also, we are using other alternatives such as wind but for it to start taking a meaningful share of the energy pie, would require a windmill field too large to be practical or environmentally sound. I would be willing to bet that some states have some serious questions about hydrogen's safety in a neighborhood setting at this point cough cough Hindenburg cough cough as opposed to some political conspiracy.

The info below comes directly from the website Amil Muzz was using to proclaim that the sky was falling and the evil American Empire was about to fall. Basically, the writer below does a better job explaining my point than I can.

http://www.energybulletin.net/primer.php

"But it's just oil - there are other fossil fuels, other energy sources, right?

To evaluate other energy sources it helps to understand the concepts of Net Energy, or the Energy Returned on Energy Invested ratio (ERoEI). One of the reasons our economies have grown so abundant so quickly over the last few generations is precisely because oil has had an unprecedently high ERoEI ratio. In the early days of oil, for every barrel of oil used for exploration and drilling, up to 100 barrels of oil were found. More recently, as oil recovery becomes more difficult, the ratio has become significantly lower. Certain alternative energy 'sources' may actually have ERoEI ratios of less than one, such most methods of industrially producing biodiesel and ethanol. That is, when all factors are considered, you probably need to invest more energy into the process than you get back.

Hydrogen, touted by many as a seamless solution, is actually an energy carrier, but not an energy source. Hydrogen must be produced using an energy source such as natural gas or nuclear power. Because of energy losses in transformation, the hydrogen will always contain less energy than was invested in it.

Some alternatives such as wind and hydro-power have much better ERoEI, however their potential expansion may be limited by various physical factors. Even in combination it may not be possible to gather from renewable sources of energy anything like the amount of energy that industrial society is accustomed to. Richard Heinberg uses the metaphor that whereas fossil fuels might be considered a massive energy inheritance, and one spent perhaps unwisely, renewables are much more akin to a hard won energy wage.

For certain tasks, such as air travel, no other energy source can readily be substituted for oil. As noted by the Hirsch Report, alternative energy infrastructures require long periods of investment, on the scale of decades, to be widely implemented. We may be already leaving the period of cheap energy before we have begun seriously embarking on this task.

It's perhaps worth noting briefly that any ERoEI study is complex and different methods of accounting can come up with vastly different results, so any net energy study might be viewed with some suspicion. Perhaps the best method yet developed is Howard Odum's eMergy analysis. But we may not know with total certainty the usefulness of any renewable energy technologies until the hidden fossil fuel energy subsidies are finally removed. "

[Medeabrass]

So governments should just stand by and watch as the elements of inflation and depression take over the nation. They should do nothing to help the economy of their nation.

I have news for you, Bush/Cheneny imposed their will on what government should be in Iraq. Bush/Cheney told other nations after 9/11 "if your not with us, then you are against us." All in the name of our "free market democracy." Countries have always, and will always ask for and offer favors and deals. OPEC is blackmailing us by artificially creating greater demand and driving up prices. Individuals and drum corps on tight budgets have to pay the ransom.

There's no need for OPEC to "create demand" when billions of Chinese are figuring out that a Beamer is more fun than a bicycle. And how do you create demand anyway without marketing? Last time I saw, I haven't seen OPEC advertising on TV...only refining companies such as Exxon, Shell etc.

I'm not trying to defend or attack our reasons for being in Iraq, but it would've been much cheaper for us to continue to get Iraq's oil by purchasing it directly or by using the UN program. It's definitely not the only time we've purchased oil from a despot we didn't like (did someone say Chavez?). A cheaper method would have been to purchase it under the table the way France supposedly did. Sounded like a great deal to me.

[DrumCorpsFan27]

There's no need for OPEC to "create demand" when billions of Chinese are figuring out that a Beamer is more fun than a bicycle. And how do you create demand anyway without marketing? Last time I saw, I haven't seen OPEC advertising on TV...only refining companies such as Exxon, Shell etc.

I'm not trying to defend or attack our reasons for being in Iraq, but it would've been much cheaper for us to continue to get Iraq's oil by purchasing it directly or by using the UN program. It's definitely not the only time we've purchased oil from a despot we didn't like (did someone say Chavez?). A cheaper method would have been to purchase it under the table the way France supposedly did. Sounded like a great deal to me.

OPEC creates higher demand by producing less oil. That means there is less available to be purchased. That drives up the price. They are using supply and demand to their avantage.

[ChicagoFan]

I have news for you, Bush/Cheneny imposed their will on what government should be in Iraq. Bush/Cheney told other nations after 9/11 "if your not with us, then you are against us." All in the name of our "free market democracy." Countries have always, and will always ask for and offer favors and deals. OPEC is blackmailing us by artificially creating greater demand and driving up prices. Individuals and drum corps on tight budgets have to pay the ransom.

Dave, you and I usually agree on most topics. We seem to see eye-to-eye on drum corps related issues but when it comes to politics, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I still fail to see your line of reasoning. For example:

1. What does 9/11 and its aftermath have to do with the free market economy? 9/11 was about terrorism, a very real and present scourge that threatens the very security of our nation and that of other peace-loving peoples.

2. Try as I might, I don't understand how OPEC (or anyone, for that matter) can "artificially create greater demand." I'm no student of economics but, as I understand it, consumers create demand, not those producing the product.

3. Why are individuals and drum corps on tight budgets the only ones that have to pay the ransom? The price of gas is not dependent upon one's financial status. Bill Gates pays the same for a gallon of gas as you and I.

4. And finally, I don't feel as if I'm being held hostage and being made to pay ransom. I have a choice. I don't have to drive; I can rely on alternative forms of transportation; I can stay home instead of driving to the movies; in short, I don't have to purchase petroleum products. Yes, it might mean a drastic change in my lifestyle but, if I find that the price of gas moves beyond what I am willing to pay, I don't have to make the purchase. Nobody is forcing me to do so.

Rather than play the blame game, why don't we examine what we're (meaning you and me and other ordinary citizens) actually doing to ease our dependence on foreign oil? Are we driving less? Are we taking public transportation? Are we curtailing vacations and other non-essential trips in the car? Do we carpool? More pointedly, are you willing to forego travelling to drum corps events this summer? Would you suggest that the entire season be cancelled and corps buses be made to sit idle as a means of sending a message to OPEC? In short, are we really willing to give up some of the conveniences and luxuries that we enjoy, or is it easier to blame the president and curse the government?

Edited May 23, 2006 by ChicagoFan

[ChicagoFan]

OPEC creates higher demand by producing less oil. That means there is less available to be purchased. That drives up the price. They are using supply and demand to their avantage.

This is flawed reasoning. Again, I'm not economics whiz but even I can figure out the problem with the above statement.

Let's say that OPEC produces 10 barrels of oil per day and that 10 customers purchase those barrels for $1 each. To rasie the price, OPEC might curtail production to only 8 barrels so that the 10 customers must now compete for a limited supply. Those willing to pay higher prices get the oil. However, now that only 8 barrels are coming through the pipeline doesn't mean that 20 customers will suddenly want the oil. New customers have not come forward or been created. Demand has not increased.

Edited May 23, 2006 by ChicagoFan

[Medeabrass]

OPEC creates higher demand by producing less oil. That means there is less available to be purchased. That drives up the price. They are using supply and demand to their avantage.

Here...check this out: http://www.wtrg.com/prices.htm

OPEC was producing about 24,000 barrels per day in 1990. Guess what they were producing in 2005? 31,000 barrels per day. Please explain to me how they are decreasing their production to strangle us.

During this same period of time, non-opec countries produced 37,500 BpD and 42,500 BpD respectively. So let's think about this. The world's oil production has increased by about 12,000 barrels per day in that 15 year span yet prices have increased. That's interesting. How can price and supply go up at the same time? When demand outstrips supply that's how. There are short term blips in supply, but overall, the supply has followed a pretty consistent upward trend since the oil embargo of the 70's. Other things that effect the price of oil include wars, threats of wars, weather, political upheaval, terrorism, Madison Scouts winning DCI this summer, etc.

Increased oil prices do the Exxon's of the world little good in that they still have to pay higher prices for the oil they are receiving from foreign sources. They don't produce near as much of their own oil anymore so only a certain portion of their business is benefitting directly from the increased prices. The percent of profitability on refined fuels is remaining the same while the price of it has increased. If you multiply the increased price times the same percent profit then you're going to come out with a higher profit number in dollar terms. Also, keep in mind that the refineries are working at near 100% capacity now since we have not created any new ones in a very long time so this also lessens the supply. Believe it or not, the profit margins on refined products are not very big...there's lot's of investment in capital etc involved plus these older refineries are becoming outdated. Find someone who doesn't mind a new refinery in their back yard and you might see price relief of some kind.

If nothing else, the web page I referenced above shows how impotent OPEC is in enforcing price.

Edited May 23, 2006 by Medeabrass

[Ryan H. Turner]

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....so meanwhile, back on the ranch...

Drum corps continue to mull over their futures.

WOW...didn't realize I was going to start a firestorm. This thread is fixin' to be yanked and sent off to the no-man's land of Current Events or whatever it's called over there.

Oh well...lots of passion out there, eh Mr. Price??? Who I see is watching this thread as I type this message!!!

[Ex VK DM]

I have to get my current events somewhere.