MJHarry Posted June 2, 2006 Author Share Posted June 2, 2006 What about staff? How do they get any sort of quantitative breakdown of why a certain corps is scoring higher? What can they do if another corps is scoring higher? Tell the judge he made a mistake? Of course not. I don't attend the post contest meetings with the judges, but I doubt very much that instructors are asking judges why another corps scored higher than them. Other corps scores should be irrelivent to what a corps is trying to achieve. I would hope the discussions between staff and judges during critiques focus on their own scores and how they can improve their own numbers. I can't thinkk of any reason why any corps staff should comment or be concerned with another corps scores. What impact can corps A have on corps B's scores? How can Corps A benefit from knonwing what Corps B scored in any caption? Will the staff say .. ok Corps B got a 10 so we need to do the same thing to get a 10 ourselves? Of course not. Everyone should concentrate on doing their OWN thing to achieve their own best score and let the numbers fall where they may. Harry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJHarry Posted June 2, 2006 Author Share Posted June 2, 2006 I think I understand what the original posters intent was; but I do not agree with all of the points made. S/he thinks that the recaps are okay for the corps to have after the performance, but feels that fans should not see this information until later in the season. #1 - how many shes do you know named HARRY? Anyway .... Ummm .. no, I believe there is no resaon to generate a recap of scores .... period. So what if Corps A beat Corps B in GE? Shouldn't a corps staff be trying to improve its own numbers by making improvements in their produce? Sure its a theology concept .. must have been something that rubbed off Bobby Hoffman during my time in Bridgemen. Entertaining the fans was always more important to us then the handful of judges. We all seemed to understand that the better we performed and the tinkering the staff did to refine our program was all that mattered. Worrying about other corps scores is pointless, because it was out of our control. After all, us knowing that another corps beat us by .5 in brass meant what ? We needed to play .6 better the next night to beat them? Of course not. The only relivent numbers are the totals announced at the end of the night when the hand out the medals. Harry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted June 2, 2006 Share Posted June 2, 2006 except they only hand them out at the end. recaps can be very helpful...for instance, you can see when one judge may be scoring lower than others in his caption. the issue on early scoring isnt recaps, it's the fact that design gets so much weight, that early dirt is ignored because of the potential of the show. then later, dirt is picked apart because of what the show is vs what it should be performance to design. too many 'names" get the benefit of the doubt due to design early in the year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJHarry Posted June 2, 2006 Author Share Posted June 2, 2006 I noticed that the person who started this thread is new to DCP .... ((((Cascade Mama)))) New to DCP ... only because of the lack of time ... I've been involved with the activity for over 35 years. I have marched all levels of the activity and supported many corps either as a driver or by giving them photographs or selling their souvenirs. In fact, the first corps I ever drove for was your Seattle Cascades in 1978 when Frank Kosciolek and I drove their equipment truck to San Jose, California and back. It was sad to hear about your former director, Rod Stubbs, passing away recently. It was he who made it possible for me to get the leave from the US Army (at the time I was stationed at Ft. Lewis). The original request was denied and then it was approved after he contacted the post commander who then ordered my company commander to approve the leave. Recaps have long been a pet peeve of mine, because I really see no reason a corps needs to spend time worrying about another corps scoring when the only numbers they can honestly have any impact on are their own, Like I said when answering another person ... yeah, I guess its a theology thing. The whole competitive thing makes no difference to me and maybe its something that rubbed off Bobby Hoffman during my time in Bridgemen. We always concentrated on making our numbers as high as a they could be by performing at our best not by trying to make fewer mistakes than anyone else. What other corps received for scores was out of our control ... so why worry about it? Shouldn't a corps staff be trying to improve its own numbers by encouraging its members to perform at a high level and achieve higher scores which would be their own reward? Sure, I can remember how it felt to get beat by North Star, Crossmen, Guardsmen and other corps early in the 1979 season. We weren't driven to "beat" any of those corps ... we were focus on making finals and getting on TV and we knew to do that we needed to improve a lot. By the time we hit Birmingham, Alabama, we peaked at the right time and did our best performances and were rewarded with a place in finals (and believe me ... after DCI East in Allentown we weren't sure we would be in finals...). Did we beat other corps .. sure, but that wasn't our motivation. Improving our program and individual & ensemble performance levels is what brought us to a 6th place finish in finals. It didn't matter then ... nor should it matter now whether or not a corps outscored another corps in a given caption. I guess knowing all the numbers would expose what your corps weakest link is ... but what purpose would that serve? Could one corps exploit another corps weakness? Nope. Therefore ... I believe ... Recaps are pointless. Oh well, I'm not sure how much time I'll have to respond to anyone else ... Lots to do before heading out on tour next week ... This year, I have chosen to drive tractor trailer for Pioneer until mid-July and then East Coast Jazz for the remainder of the season. Have a safe and enjoyable summer one and all ... see ya down the road. Harry Heidelmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburstall Posted June 2, 2006 Share Posted June 2, 2006 NONE AT ALL .. they serve no constructive purpose. Harry They serve a great public service. If recaps weren't posted, how could fantasy drum corps run? That's no different than asking that the stats of any sports game not be posted. I mean, what good would seeing runs, hits, yards passing, yards rushing, 2-point shots, rebounds, etc. then? If you are going to consider drum corps partly a sport, then all the trappings need to come along with it, that including posting recaps. After reading what you you are stating, I can see why the junior drum corps is starting to become full of themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJHarry Posted June 2, 2006 Author Share Posted June 2, 2006 except they only hand them out at the end.recaps can be very helpful...for instance, you can see when one judge may be scoring lower than others in his caption. the issue on early scoring isnt recaps, it's the fact that design gets so much weight, that early dirt is ignored because of the potential of the show. then later, dirt is picked apart because of what the show is vs what it should be performance to design. too many 'names" get the benefit of the doubt due to design early in the year ************************************************************ Is it the responsibility of the judges to design shows or evaluate the performance and its programs components? This should probably start a whole other thread, but I always thought judges were adjudicators and not designers. Sure the judge can say he doesn't like a certain aspect of a program and then produce a number based on his opinion of the performance and the shows elements. Then the corps program designer can act accordingly ... making changes based on the results of the performance and a judges suggestions. Not making changes suggested by a particular judge, because you know he will be judging prelims during finals in four weeks. Corps should be evaluated based on their performance each and every night .. regardless of who designed it .. and not who can make a better argument during a critique. Harry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted June 2, 2006 Share Posted June 2, 2006 i dont disagree that it should be based on the nights show...but that isnt the fault of recaps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJHarry Posted June 2, 2006 Author Share Posted June 2, 2006 They serve a great public service. If recaps weren't posted, how could fantasy drum corps run?That's no different than asking that the stats of any sports game not be posted. I mean, what good would seeing runs, hits, yards passing, yards rushing, 2-point shots, rebounds, etc. then? If you are going to consider drum corps partly a sport, then all the trappings need to come along with it, that including posting recaps. After reading what you you are stating, I can see why the junior drum corps is starting to become full of themselves. ******************************************************************************** ************************** Here you are comparing apples to oranges. In sports such as baseball, football, basketball and hockey there are no judges. Referees and umpires are there to enforce the rules .. not to give a player or team an evaluation. The players numbers (stats) come from their own personal accomplishments and go up or down based on the individual players performance not someone's opinion of their performance. Spots like gymnastics and figure skating have been subject to the opinion based scoring for years and lok at what a mess that is in now and why they are changing their system to reward those who strive for excellence and attempt new and innovating movements. Drum corps performances should be evaluated each night based on that night's level of excellence ... not on what they've been acheiving lately. So .. other than providing everyone with the breakdown of how a corps various components compared to another corps ... what purpose do recaps serve? And should Corps A's performance on June 30 have any impact on Corps A's score or ranking on July 15? As far as the whole fantasy thing ... I prefer reality ... Harry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgoth Bauglir Posted June 2, 2006 Share Posted June 2, 2006 Have you ever taught? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburstall Posted June 2, 2006 Share Posted June 2, 2006 ********************************************************************************************************** Here you are comparing apples to oranges. In sports such as baseball, football, basketball and hockey there are no judges. Referees and umpires are there to enforce the rules .. not to give a player or team an evaluation. The players numbers (stats) come from their own personal accomplishments and go up or down based on the individual players performance not someone's opinion of their performance. Spots like gymnastics and figure skating have been subject to the opinion based scoring for years and lok at what a mess that is in now and why they are changing their system to reward those who strive for excellence and attempt new and innovating movements. Drum corps performances should be evaluated each night based on that night's level of excellence ... not on what they've been acheiving lately. So .. other than providing everyone with the breakdown of how a corps various components compared to another corps ... what purpose do recaps serve? And should Corps A's performance on June 30 have any impact on Corps A's score or ranking on July 15? As far as the whole fantasy thing ... I prefer reality ... Harry Sorry, but the comparison between corps and other sports is very relavent. As long as a score is given, doesn't matter if it comes from out of 100, 6 judges giving a rating from 0 to 6 or runs, there has to be some sort of break down. Whether it is from a recaps sheet or hits. Believe it it not, the public is shown the breakdown. Even seen any recent baseball games? or recent figure skating on tv? ANd remember this....."reality is for people who can't handle fantasy". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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