Credibility in judging

[84skyrydr]

I watched in amazement in San Antonio as the judging panel decided that Spirit was not only on top of the Colts but increased their lead. I have nothing against Spirit as their night show was way better than their morning show, but the their morning show was NOT better than the Colts. I know you can look at the caption numbers and see what the problem was, but to me that only tells me what numbers ( contrived) that the judges gave the particular corps. I do realise that the corps get a critique after the show, but how about explaining it in an open forum for joe fan to understand the unbelievable numbers? I have distrusted the DCI "judging game " for ever as they have no accountability for their actions. I would like to trust it and believe that a political fiasco doesn't control placement but without some kind of check and balance system how can anybody believe it. Any explanations or can we just accept that they are truly honest and reflective scores?

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Everyone has looked at the scores "their" corps has recieved at some point and called foul. But that doesn't mean every time there is some secret bias against that corps.

The judges usually get it right. I trust them.

[Row 25]

I do think that judges may sometimes slightly favor a corps that they may have an association of some type with. Just like the home team in a sporting event may sometimes get the benefit of the doubt in certain situations. Sometimes the favoritism could be subconcious. I doubt however that a judge would keep his or her job if it was blatant. I couldn't help but wonder if you have some kind of association with Colts that may cloud your perception somewhat. I personally think Spirit should be placing a spot higher than they are. I admit that I live more near Spirit, so maybe my perception is clouded a bit.

[xmenjeffb]

I watched in amazement in San Antonio as the judging panel decided that Spirit was not only on top of the Colts but increased their lead. I have nothing against Spirit as their night show was way better than their morning show, but the their morning show was NOT better than the Colts. I know you can look at the caption numbers and see what the problem was, but to me that only tells me what numbers ( contrived) that the judges gave the particular corps. I do realise that the corps get a critique after the show, but how about explaining it in an open forum for joe fan to understand the unbelievable numbers? I have distrusted the DCI "judging game " for ever as they have no accountability for their actions. I would like to trust it and believe that a political fiasco doesn't control placement but without some kind of check and balance system how can anybody believe it. Any explanations or can we just accept that they are truly honest and reflective scores?

Subjective--Expressing or bringing into prominence the individuality of the artist or author. The judge brings his or her experince to the arena. The judge reads and reacts or analyzes said caption as it unfolds. The judge gives the unit a number based on a criteria reference system. To examine methodically by separating into parts and studying their interrelations the judge arrives at a number.

My question to you is what is to gain for a judge cheat ?? What is this political gain you speak of ??

I have yelled , screamed ,raised the thunder and delivered the lighting and made a fool of myself at times in critiques. I have had great conversations that helped far more often. But have never thought a judge just outright cheated and lied on a DCI tour. Oh yes i have not agreed but it is my opinion against the judge. I have also walked in to critique and said we were not very good tonight!

But the funny part is, NO ONE EVER complains when the the judge has them up on a bad night !! And that happens also. I have never heard this in a critique ..." What !!! Are you an IDIOT ?? We were horrible tonight !! How could you possibly have us up !!" As my friend RC once told me , " Sometimes ... your baby is bald and ugly ...But no one wants to hear that about thier baby. " Now it may grow to be a beautiful child .But tonight it was wrinkled and not looking so good .

DO you think someone is getting paid to throw a show ??

DO you think judges do this because the pay is so great ?? It is not like being a professional umpire or ref.

The activity is competitive , we need judges . If it were you and I on the panel you would have had Colts up it sounds. I may have on visual ensemble as well . On Brass and percussion I would have had Spirit up and by a a healthy spread in the day show. Does not make you or I right or wrong based on our experince we would have used the criteria and arrived at our decision.

Thank you .

[victorcoly]

I will really hold back in this topic, but I will DEFINTELY say that there are a handful of judges on DCI's roster today that have no business even setting foot inside the stadium.

Over the past few years we've seen the re-emergence of a two percussion judge system at major DCI shows, and during finals week. When there is over a 1.5 difference in points bewteen these two judges for certain corps, someone needs booted from the roster. Same has happened in other captions where certain corps are scoring mid/high box 5 going into finals week, and their scores in a particular caption GE Music) drop almost two points while in a similar caption (Ens Music) they remain in mid/high box 5.

So is there credibility? For the most part, yes, but DCI still needs to weed out some of the rotten apples.

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Myabe some corps have a much better pit than battery? Or vice versa?

[Gauchos77]

To help me understand this a little better I need to be educated in terms of how the judges are selected for DCI. What exactly is the criteria for one to be a judge? Does it require a certain college degree in music? A set amount of experience as a music educator at a certain level within the music community - i.e. large high school marching band program, college music department or prior drum corps marching experience?

Then, there is the topic of a "certification" so to speak. Does DCI provide for their judges numerous classes, critiques of their prior scoring of corps and/or clinics throughout the off season? Are they given an examination during these courses/classes? What I am trying to ask is like if there is a room full of judges watching a dvd of a certain corps and then they go through their judging process and tabulate a score for the dvd they just watched. Then have a room wide critique.

Sure, I get upset sometimes with a score posted for some corps. But, I also know that I have no idea what to look for - I just enjoy the efforts put forth by all the corps members during their shows. Judging this activity has to be one of the most difficult aspects involved. I'm sure, at times, that it has to drive the techs and directors nuts to hear during a critique that if their corp were to change this or tweek that then they would have a better GE score. Then they make the changes only to have a different judge the next night single out that changed section and suggest a different change for the same segment. Do the judges converse with each other what they have seen and suggested for corps throughout the season? I don't know.

Maybe if DCI would make public "official" answers to some of these questions it would help the fans understand what goes into not only choosing a judge, but what goes into judging these shows as a whole.

[Chris Scott]

I watched in amazement in San Antonio as the judging panel decided that Spirit was not only on top of the Colts but increased their lead. I have nothing against Spirit as their night show was way better than their morning show, but the their morning show was NOT better than the Colts. I know you can look at the caption numbers and see what the problem was, but to me that only tells me what numbers ( contrived) that the judges gave the particular corps. I do realise that the corps get a critique after the show, but how about explaining it in an open forum for joe fan to understand the unbelievable numbers? I have distrusted the DCI "judging game " for ever as they have no accountability for their actions. I would like to trust it and believe that a political fiasco doesn't control placement but without some kind of check and balance system how can anybody believe it. Any explanations or can we just accept that they are truly honest and reflective scores?

I guess to answer one part of the question: When "Joe Fan" has input on the outcome of a corps' performance, he will be entitled to an explanation of the numbers.

For me, there will always be drum corps that I will view through rose-colored glasses. I've read (on this board) forums, aplenty about "this judge" liking this corps over that corps, and "that judge" marched with that corps and selected them because of " home cookin' ".

Having known (and still knowing) , corps staff members, former corps members, and music educators who are judges, it is unrealistic to say that Judge A picked Corps B because he marched there. They have professional pedigrees, certifications, and affiliations in their "real" lives that they would not be willing to compromise because of sentimental attachments to a particular corps - of which they are an alum.

It was a widely held assertion (when I marched, and now), that "1st Tour" was judged by the panel based on the corps' performance, but there was more weight placed on the repertoire. By the same token, it was also a widely held assertion that (then and now) by "2nd tour", if the corps was not performing their show up to standard (no matter how difficult or simple the design), they would not receive the credit that many felt was due.

I am not a shill for judges. I was in the (music/education/drum corps) business for a while, but for me to say I know all the ins and outs is not realistic. Sometimes a judge will miss, but that is where the other judges on the panel will make up for it. If 11 of 12 Judges (judging by the same criteria) have Corps A in 4th Place, and Judge X has them in 1st, it could be that Judge X "really got it right", or, more realistically, Judge X just missed.

And airing that out to "Joe Fan", to me, would do nothing but affirm the beliefs of those who want to buy in to the system, and confirm the doubts of those who don't.

Just my thoughts, though. :)

Chris

[84skyrydr]

Yes, I am a Colt alum from the 80s along with the Guardsmen and Sky Ryders, but I am not pushing for them to get anywhere they don't deserve. I am just questioning why judges can't have some kind of fan forum so the fans can know why the drumline got a 15.5, or why the A corps was better than the Z corps in a certain area. Do I think that judges cheat? No, but I do think that they go into a show with a pretty good concieved notion about where any certain corps should place and score. I have seen that some corps tend to get better scores while not appearing to the stadium full of former corps members to have been the better corps on any given night. Like I said before the Colts /Spirit fight for the final spot should be between the two corps on field performance AT the time of said performance, not based on the last week or twos performances overall, hence POLITICS.

[MikeBob]

I am just questioning why judges can't have some kind of fan forum so the fans can know why the drumline got a 15.5, or why the A corps was better than the Z corps in a certain area.

Personally, I don't think the judges have the time or inclination to justify themselves to thousands of individual fans (nor should they have to). You think things get volatile between fans on the Internet? Imagine the flame-fest a judges' discussion forum would be.

Edited July 29, 2006 by MikeBob