Were we really that bad?

[Fran Haring]

Some random thoughts on the issue...all IMO of course...

1) The average skill level 'today' exceed the average level of performance of 'then'.

2) The tick system resulted in a more 'blocky' arranging style and performance method, as corps tried to minimize the CHANCE of getting ticked.

3) As the better players were in the top of each voice, the 2nd and 3rd parts were by nature less intricate.

4) The idea that hornlines just blew thier brains out is totally bogus. They played as well as they could. I do think that dynamics tended to be more terraced in style. And, there was less shaping within a line, though the arranging style (see above) had an impact on that.

5) The equipment is far batter today.

6) Recording is far better today.

7) The top-to-bottom instruction is better today.

8) There were some great sounding corps 'then', just as there are 'now'.

All these points make sense to me, as do the points MartyBucs makes.

Every now and again I listen to some of the "old days" recordings.... pre-DCI, with the "tick system" in place.... and it seems that, in some cases, some horn lines sounded more "wide open" earlier in the season than they did at the end. It seems as if some corps either watered down their brass book, or, as MartyBucs alluded to, had the hornlines play in a more "clipped" style to avoid ticks for releases, etc., at the late-season championship shows.

There are/were exceptions to this. Argonne's hornlines always seemed to have that full, wide-open sound all season, as did a number of the senior/all-age corps.

I definitely agree with the notion that instruction is better today, top to bottom. Heck, the overriding brass "technique" I learned in my local junior corps was basically "here's the horn....blow into it and try to get a good sound." LOL

Fran

[X DM]

I'm not entirely convinced that the brass instructional level is" better " today, only that it is " different ". Many of the instructors in the pre DCI years were working in an environment in which many of the kids were very raw musically. We've agreed that on average, the talent level is better today that the instructional staff is able to work with. Just about every kid who goes to try out at camp today has a basic musical skill level that not all the pre DCI kids had. The pre DCI brass instructors had a much wider range of talent within the ranks that they had to deal with, certainly much more disparate levels than today's brass instructors work with. The Brass instructors and arrangers had limited instrumentation to work with in the pre DCI years too...... (no mellophones for instance in the early 60's, the absence of 3 valves made arrangements more limiting, and so on and so forth.)....... the talent pool was limited in other ways as well for these instructors to try and maximize their intended results...... 50% of the potential talent pool was not even available to the 60's brass instructors as compared to today's talent pool. Brass lines for instance were solely the domain of the male participant in the 60's (except for the prevalence of the all girl corps.).... And it was rare indeed in the 60's for a Brass arranger to be labeled as " boring " for the product most put out. "Boring" was simply not in the drum corps lexicon with most drum corps fans regarding brass line arranging discussions back in the 60's. It simply wasn't a lightening rod issue that we hear much more often today than in the pre DCI days with brass arrangers........ for these and other reasons, I applaud the efforts of the pre DCI Brass arrangers and brass instructors. What they accomplished in the environment that they worked in was pretty impressive in my opinion.

Edited February 7, 2007 by X DM

[BOBSMYTH]

There are many differences then vs. now. Many have already been mentioned (quality of equipment, musical training, musical styles, recording techniques).

The one that strikes me is average age. Many lines back in the day had a mixture of younger players. Not to generalize too much but they may not have had the chops, the experience or the maturity to be as consistently good for the duration of a given performance or from night to night.

[Martybucs]

Brass lines for instance were solely the domain of the male participant in the 60's (except for the prevalence of the all girl corps.)....

Warning!!! Thin Ice!

We had girls in our hornline in 1964, when I joined my junior corps. And they were definitely not wimpy. Good strong players. In 1969, we had a huge turnover due to age outs and the draft. At the same time the Media Fawns, all girl corps from Media, PA disbanded. Fortunately for us, many of them came to our corps and in 1970 we were winning high horn scores in almost every show.

Just so ya know.

[MikeD]

Warning!!! Thin Ice!

We had girls in our hornline in 1964, when I joined my junior corps. And they were definitely not wimpy. Good strong players. In 1969, we had a huge turnover due to age outs and the draft. At the same time the Media Fawns, all girl corps from Media, PA disbanded. Fortunately for us, many of them came to our corps and in 1970 we were winning high horn scores in almost every show.

Just so ya know.

The great Argonne rebel hornline of 71 had gals in it.

I do think that of the top corps they were mostly all guys in the horn and drumlines in my day, esp here in the east...Garfield, 2-7, BAC, Blessed Sac, Blue Rock..etc..

[MikeD]

There are many differences then vs. now. Many have already been mentioned (quality of equipment, musical training, musical styles, recording techniques).

The one that strikes me is average age. Many lines back in the day had a mixture of younger players. Not to generalize too much but they may not have had the chops, the experience or the maturity to be as consistently good for the duration of a given performance or from night to night.

Very true. Of our drumline in 71 Garfield of the 4 snares, 3 tenors and 4 timps....the OLDEST were 18...with most of us at 17 and a few at 16. Though some of the corps had a much older age...Blue Rock, for example, had a very old and experienced drumline that had been together since around 67 or so...top in the country.

[toddschultz]

I think it is completely off base to say that corps today are across the boards taught better today...if that's the case, why do we hold people like Col. Crawford with such high regard...oh that's right, he was a great brass teacher. And there are countless others. I don't think it's a matter of which hornlines were better, or whatever. Is the equipment of today better, maybe, some would say...but I think the only argument that I would agree with is how much better recording equipment is.

I've heard some breath-taking recordings of the pre-DCI era that I enjoy just as much, if not more than many of my DCI-era recordings.

Also...there are hornlines throughout Divison 1, 2, and 3 that are OBVIOUSLY not being taught as well as some of the corps from the pre-DCI era.

It's a case by case, and corps by corps argument, but I do not think that we could make an honest assessment of which hornlines are better in performance and instruction....that is of course unless we have a De Lorean and a Flux Capaciter from Dr. Emmett Brown handy.

[supersop]

I guess I'll break it down to basic differences and commonalities (IMHO).

1) Drum corps has and always will (until we have woodwinds) be thought of and respected as THE BEST in marching arts. High school kids have always looked up to us and been awe struck by our accomplishments. I have yet to see a highschool BOA band kid get asked for his autograph (I have to admit, that was a fun night in WV in 89). So long as our activity continues to reach the far corners of our country and the product is top notch (and yes, standards have risen with each passing decade) we will continue to be the bigdogs.

2) I had instructors in my time that were more about building up and praising then I see today. The first horn line I ever marched with was 20 members strong. Only 10 of them were good players from the start, and I have to say, the teaching methods of our staff brought that line to a very high caliber. I marched with a defending world champion and won a ring and I still believe whole heartedly that the 20 member line I first started with was the best horn line I've ever played with.

3) Present day, you aren't teaching kids how to play for the first time or how to read music. In my opinion the books have a LOT less meat these days, but that's to be expected when you're clipping along at 6 to 5 average for the entire show (which to me is my biggest complaint with present day drum corps). Old School was more about WOW'ing the crowd with massive power and finding the sizzle in the horn on a regular basis .... rarely if EVER heard these days. Different era's .... different agenda's .... different mindset. I've only heard 1 story in the last 10 years where drum corps saved a kids life ....... I wonder how many young men and women prior to the 80's turned their lives around due to drum corps?

4) Mic placement was horrible back in the day. It took time for them to figure out the best way to record with the technology they had (just like the amped pits we have now ..... it's going to take alot of trial and error before you get it right .. hopefully).

5) Part of the allure of old school (to me) was that it wasn't perfect. It was often darn close but I liked it when someone was playing on the edge because they were having SO much fun playing those quirky horns. Fracking came with the territory ... that's a fact. It wasn't because the players weren't talented or lacking an attention to detail. Some of those old horns just had lil gremlins that stuck their heads out of the bell for no reason whatsoever. Basically, if you went out and laid it all on the line ... mistakes were acceptable and reminded us that the kids were human .... and just kids performing WAY ABOVE the bar.

6) Horns are better now but I still think the 2 valve bugles of the 80's is where things should have stayed. It made our activity unique. They were hard to play well and clearly exposed what lines were the best.

In the end, anyone that came after the 80's is probably going to disagree with most of what I've said. I truly respect what the young men and women are producing now .... but I APPRECIATE what came before them much more. If you've never played on a 2 valve Deg/whatever in a full hornline ...... if you never witnessed it live ...... you'll never know the TRUE difference between then and now. The sad part in all of this is that the INSTITUTION of what drum and bugle corps is really all about .... plays no part in the activity we see today. I'm not in the mood to rehash societal changes or anything like that so don't bother. I just get the feeling that the performers of today have very little appreciation for where this great activity came from, and how blessed they are that they still have the opportunity to be a part of it.

</ :ramd: >

Edited February 7, 2007 by supersop

[silvertrombone]

Just remember, we're talking about national organizations in terms of the draw today. Pre-DCI it was pretty much local. You've got something like 30 people a year from Texas at Rockford and talent level down here is insane. I graduated hs in '92 and was alternate to Texas All-State and always top 2 in Region. I'd probably be doing great to make the top band today! The state has at least 50 new high schools open since I was in school, all in 5A (big schools), making the 'gene pool' quite a bit more well stocked. And directors are more likely to be DCI vets today than then. Better programs, more interest in marching band and DCI. Where bands here used to be good with a few great ones, the great ones are much more common. This makes DCI better talent-wise b/c they're drawing the best kids nation-wide and have better rehearsal techniques overall. Not bashing old corps--just pointing out that as year-round programs (ie, hs bands) improve, corps improve. Instead of me going up and down my street and filling a corps with city kids, now corps draw from a thousand miles away in all directions.

Bad? Bad word--more like more refined or better trained today. Not a knock against the past, just an ever-amazing improvement in talent, technique and teaching.

[Martybucs]

n....that is of course unless we have a De Lorean and a Flux Capaciter from Dr. Emmett Brown handy.

I've got one of those.