Is DCA dead?

[84BDsop]

Too bad.. really.

Figured.

Sharon

First an attack on Lee....then this scintillating response.

C'mon, Sharon...at least put some effort into it....

Edited March 24, 2007 by 84BDsop

[MelloTrump]

Know about Drum Corps - millions

Go to shows - thousands

I feel that DCI has done some good work to broaden the appeal of Drum Corps. First, they televise championships. Second, by focusing their efforts on new fans, they have reached out to millions of music students. This IS thinking outside the box (the box being existing fans).

But I do agree that getting more people interested is the way to go. And DCA corps build their shows to be entertaining (it's on the sheets!). That should make us good contenders for broader popularity.

But, getting people to work together for the common good (or just a common goal) is a challenge. I agree with Lee that it is sad that we let our disagreements take our focus away from the greater good at times. It is too easy to get caught up in your own gig and ignore all others. But is that best for our activity?

Indeed, there are some who work for the betterment and growth of DCA.

But there are others who say, "I don't know why YOU are here." And that is what can burn people out on the whole DCA activity.

If this had been the initial opening to the thread, then there would've been a lot less nastiness. Straight to the point,without inciting what turned out to be a semi-riot. I 'll also add that there is the absence of the "let the personal attacks begin" at the end of the statement. I appreciate your enthusiasm. Buzz is a great tool to be utilized , but not in the way it was in post #1.Thankyou for a clear and straightforward translation. :)

Edited March 24, 2007 by MelloTrump

[Nespy]

FWIW,,The Crowd knew who owned that night. B)

That sort of mentality rarely seems to help the people that are getting the shaft. I know, from my own experiences, I am referring to 1992 DCI Division II Championships and 2000 DCA Class A Championships. They both still #### me off.

[ohhappyday]

This thread has made some interesting reading for me.

[ducttapedgerbil]

There are signs of death in DCA. Aside from the anti-growth rules that got approved(fewer votes, higher minimum to compete). The performering corps don't get their name on dcacorps.org until the season after they perform at a dca championships. The performers also don't know if they'll be performing on a football field, or if they'll be photographers, or videographers recording their performance until they're on the field at the event, and maybe not until much later than that. Much less knowing if they'll get to compete in front of an audience of 30 or 3,000. Maybe not dead, or gonna die anytime soon, but there's a definite sign of deterioration.

30 is a pretty good turnout for us....we are used to going on at DCI shows first...with the sun in our eyes...and most of the fans still getting nachos....Hey, does that make us the "nacho" corps????

[frontline99]

IMHO..

JHC.. I just explained George Hopkins. Oh wait.. I've written that before.

Lee Rudnicki is THE George Hopkins of DCA. I sure hope that DCA's administration will recognize a cancer to the movement of drum and bugle corps.. and remove it. <**>

Does the NS in your name stand for North Star? I sincerly hope so, I really love them. If I could resurrect one corps, now that we have the Bridgemen back it would undoubtedly be North Star and the mighty CHROME WALL. If it stands for something else, well, I still love North Star.

Anyway, so when did calling someone George Hopkins become an insult? Despite what the sour taste of bile that rises in my throat imagining saxophones on the field, I have a great deal of respect for the man. He is the one of the largest driving forces preventing drum corps from becoming a stagnant pool of intellectual let downs. Say what you want, but it's people like Hopkins who continue to push for change that are responsible for evolution that leads to shows like Phantom 96 and SCV 04. If not for people like Hopkins pushing for "radical" changes like 3 valve horns and Asymmetrical drill (Please, I don't need a history lesson, I know that is attributed to G. Zingali) the activity would have stalled and died. Even though I have come to appreciate drum corps from periods pre-dating my own, if drum corps looked the same way it did in 1971 I would not have marched. My point here is that we need these "free radicals" (to make a chemistry analogy out of it) to stir things up and ignite a fire under everyone's collective butts in order to get positive results. Without exchange of ideas and questioning of the current process.

Apple II's were great when they came out and just because they made some things easier, compared to a modern power mac they might as well be a giant abacus (y'know the little bead thingy). If you reject it before you take the time to find out how useful it is you'll still be sitting in your office staring at ASCII graphics in amazement.

Say what you will about Lee and his personality... DCA, no, the world needs its Lee Rudnickis. Here's to the future...

[Skylinersop16]

Holy crap that thing is kewl

[84BDsop]

30 is a pretty good turnout for us....we are used to going on at DCI shows first...with the sun in our eyes.

Oh great....thanks for reminding me of the 05 Long Beach show....

*opening backfield....turn around for the first hit....sun in eyes, seeing NOTHING but glare, doing move blindly with the rest of teh corps in the same predicament until blissfully entering teh shade from teh stands. Oh! THERE'S the DM!*

[idontwan2know]

A few more random thoughts:

1) If we want an organization that is more effective at marketing and management ala DCI, we have to provide them with the resources necessary. Improvements can be made, but the potential will never be realized as long as DCA is run out of garages and in people's spare time. And that is not a criticism of anyone taking on that incredibly demanding task.

Many of us are frustrated at the "do it yourself" attitude towards growth and expansion, but a very real factor is simply the fact that the organization doesn't have the resources in terms of people, money, time and skills to really do the things we'd like to see.

2) Painting with mile-wide brushes doesn't help. I've been guilty of this in the past, but have learned from my mistakes. Not every person in a corps agrees with the decisions or opinions espoused by the management, and not every corps in the north east has it out for every corps from a state other than New York and Pennsylvania. Are there people and even some organizations out there who look at the growth of all-age corps around the country as an inconvenience rather than an opportunity? Sure. But there are corps out there doing what they can to help as well.

Take Hurcs, for example. They're further "northeast" than just about anybody, yet they've made trips to southern shows two years in a row now. Established corps getting on the bus to come to our shows is by far the best thing anyone can do to help grow the regions. How about some public gratitude rather than complaining that everyone isn't going out of their way to help?

We all know what the problems are, with the exceptions of a few ostriches. I don't mind Lee's pot-stirring as much as some people...the fact is that he has brought some ugly things to light and used the public outcry to effect positive change(ie. the "renegade rule", the near collapse of the Winston-Salem show due to corps pulling out, etc. etc.). With that being said, a few more proposals for solutions and a little less "that's just wrong,man" (in my best Tommy Chong voice) would be nice.

[LegalEagle50]

thanks Alan ~ a whole lot of good thoughts on the subject.

i have some to add to it as well.

lets start off with what appears to be the big picture of Lee's idea. DCA going to and/or exceeding DCI's level of visibility.

for DCA to go at least to DCI's level, you're going to need to create full time employees, office space, etc. From my understanding of it, DCA's current financial set up is that the money is funneled back out to the corps. Where would the money come to set this type of industry/corporation up? DCA IMO can't just walk into a bank and get a loan for a couple hundred thousand, and in this day and age, people aren't going to do it out of their own pocket on this scale unless they are someone like Bill Cook, a very financially well off person with the heart to donate to our parent organization. yes, DCA does have corporate sponsors but on a limited level. i don't believe their corporate sponsors are going to financially hand out the sheer amount of money needed for this type of venture.

so then it would seem the only option would be taking prize money away from the corps. is that the right way to go? do you jack up the prices sponsors charge and have the fans to pay for it? where is the cash cow to get this started? IS there a cash cow to get this started? because undoubtedly you will need it.

the next thought would be difficult as far as the scope of competing nationally.

to go national, you will force corps to choose between traveling more to be competitive, or staying in touch with their local base. some DCA corps are incredibly tight in their communities, and let's be honest, this is something we complain about all the time with junior corps. If you are traveling 800 or more miles every week to do shows, you have to give something up. to some corps, losing this link to the community will mean losing valuable cash. some corps do not do parades but many of the corps do many parades for Memorial Day, 4th of July, even tiny local events. the visibility within their own communities and area are incredibly valuable to them. because of that visibility they are able to keep on the competitive course. it doesn't solely come down to just money either, but also membership, places to practice, etc. many corps have learned by giving to the community, the community gives back. i'm not saying it isn't possible to find a happy medium between travel and local, but it also isn't prudent to toss the baby out with the bath water.

look at some of the corps. Hurcs just got huge props from Alan as far as traveling to a couple of the southern shows, but they have also managed to stay close to their Connecticut ties. the Mayor of West Haven was on a local radio station when it was the Hurcs 50th anniversary a couple of years ago going on about them. it wasn't a paid thing, he wasn't asked to do it. and they aren't even from West Haven. Cabs, besides multiple parades on the 4th of July, put on a performance for the people of Hawthorne that evening. if you live in Hawthorne, NJ even if you have no ties whatsoever to drum corps, you KNOW who the Cabs are. Empire Statemen have those type of ties up in their area too from everything i've read. as do Bucs. CV is out there too. i'm sure many others of the corps are too. that's just what i can come up with off the top of my head.

as suggestion was made to have national level regional competitions in connection with DCI. in theory it is a good idea, yet i feel when you look at it closer it has the chance to have very bad results too. looking at the DCI example, by going national and led to the demand for top notch corps only in super shows, which is also leading to the death of Div. II/III. let's face it ~ DCA corps are time killers at these DCI shows. last year neither the Bucs nor the Bridgemen were advertised by DCI as being performers in the Allentown show. i have yet to see them as advertised for it again this year by anything than the corps themselves. by spending 8 -10 hours, or more, traveling to these shows, to go on early in the afternoon/evening you are having no rehearsal time. in addition, in trying to do big regional shows, you also alienate long time show sponsors that faithfully run 5/6 corps shows every year.

as far as the idea of DCA following the same mold:

Camel Lips said:

'I foresee the expansion of DCA outgrowing its current confinement and branching out into a huge activity.Several corps will choose not to join in the fun and excitement and have small shows at home or they can jump on the bus where the really big shows will be..

is it worth alienating long time DCA show sponsors? also what are the costs to run these super shows where, right now, the market isnt in place to support them? Five Star ran a DCA/DCI show for years which had 10-13 corps every year at Hershey stadium and had an attendance of 5000-7500 people every year, yet from what i've been told they barely made money. additionally, DCI has one thing going for it for stadium rental fee breaks DCA doesnt ~ they market themselves as a youth activity. i am not saying i know this as certainty, but it is my suspicion that Hopkins gets the Hershey stadium now cheaper than Five Star would because he runs a youth group. does anyone truly think DCA can afford the Georgia Dome, Giants Stadium, Indy, right now? And if they could, think they'd get the same price as DCI? i'd bet 10-1 that it wouldn't ever happen. DCA is a not marketable in the same manner. it is an "all-age" activity and as such cute little statements like "it's for the kids" doesn't fit it.

we already know corps sponsors are unhappy with small and unprepared corps. isn't that why the 35+ rule was created? so just what is the solution? if the circuit grows too fast it could very well end up imploding. what did DCI's rapid growth due in the 70's? it killed a ton of corps by the 80's. i'm not saying DCI is solely to blame, but it didn't help an already rocky situation either. there are corps currently in DCA that are in rocky situations. if you force them to leave their local base of operations and make them feel as if they have no choice but to travel further the chances are high that those corps will die off too. with no other circuits for the junior corps, it has become play DCI's game or die. this year 4 DI corps aren't coming out. IF those corps had more local shows ~ what a savings for them, just maybe you'd still see them out competitively. is it possible that the DCA corps could come to a happy medium on this idea? i do think so BUT i think it has to be looked at cautiously ~ not with a jump in with both feet first type of attitude.

by turning away from DCA and jumping to DCI's side solely needs to be looked at closely too IMO.

DCI will run shows like that when it is to THEIR financial advantage, not the "all age" corps. again, DCI's charter is about youth organizations. IF DCI chooses to get into the all age corps business, they have to change a lot of their financial structure and maybe even lose some of their current marketing they have now because their full focus wont be all youth related. if it hurts DCI they aren't going to jump on board. would it financially pay off for them in the long run? would it help attendance? no do don't we know this either way without trying it BUT DCI ran all age shows on a Saturday afternoon in 1999 and 2001, and attendance wasnt huge, even with advertising. they had the chance to do so again at Foxboro in 2005, but made the show on Sunday, a day when most people were traveling home from DCI, as well as putting the show in Rhode Island which was far off the beaten course of people flying out of Boston that day. it wasn't even all that accessible to people driving as 95 South is historically a nightmare on Sundays with people returning from the Cape, etc. *it proved to be such that day as well*.

additionally ~ lets look at DCI week shall we?

Monday is Div. 3 quarters, Tuesday is Div. 2 quarters. Wednesday is I&E. Thursday is Div. 2/3 semis and Div. 1 quarters, Friday is semis and Saturday is finals for all. where do you fit in "all age" corps to that schedule? plus where would they be held? do they get a lesser stadium than or the same as Div. 2/3 gets til their finals performances? Also, will the facility allow 3 finals shows on one day knowing the logisitics of having the place ready for each show? these are really important questions that need to be considered, analyzed and answers put into place before any reasonable corps should act on it IMO.

DCA could and should do more marketing. DCI took years to build themselves up to being, finally, a fiscally smart organization. to go national overnight because people want it, is risking financial ruin, and odds against it working are very high. for the most part, no one wants to see ANY DCA corps fold. yes there is the usual infighting and b.s. but looking at it from the overall perspective of members, administrations and fans ~ the long term goal is success ~ not failure.

in answer to Lee's original question of Is DCA dead?, no i don't think it is. i think it has many good years, if not its best years ever, ahead of it. if people want DCA to be dead they will work hard to kill it off. i don't doubt that. though i will be the first to admit i find it very sad to think people would attempt to go to the extremes to do so.

SOOOO ~ what exactly should we/how should we attempt to feasibly make it work?

IF the current DCA administration is backwards thinking *as it appears some people believe* where are the people stepping up to run for those spots in the administration to make it work better? When was the last time there was comeptition from anyone for any DCA leadership position? If people want to affect change, they need to actively campaign for these positions, because complaining online does nothing for their cause. tossing around suggestions on line is a place to start, but until someone takes the time to put the serious options down on paper and present them, quite frankly nothing much is going to happen or even change.

so ~ where are the ideas and the suggestions? where are the blueprints?

P.S. ~ sorry for the length of this. i feel very strongly on this, as do many of you.