corps-mudgeon Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 I find Mike's responses fascinating. If he isn't just an artificial intelligence conversation application sitting on the DCP server, he is remarkably immune to granting concessions. People write missives with impeccable and irrefutable logic, apparently in hopes of convincing Mike of the error of his ways, and out comes the next one- or two-sentence restatement of what he said over 20 pages ago. It's as if he calculates how to inflict the maximum amount of frustration with the minimum number of words. And then comes the next essay-length post appealing to reason, and then the next one- or two-sentence comeback. The dynamics of this are intriguing and I'm looking forward to seeing how many more pages Mike can string out this exercise in futility. I think I'll just sit back and continue watching the show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madscout96 Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 I find Mike's responses fascinating. If he isn't just an artificial intelligence conversation application sitting on the DCP server, he is remarkably immune to granting concessions. People write missives with impeccable and irrefutable logic, apparently in hopes of convincing Mike of the error of his ways, and out comes the next one- or two-sentence restatement of what he said over 20 pages ago. It's as if he calculates how to inflict the maximum amount of frustration with the minimum number of words. And then comes the next essay-length post appealing to reason, and then the next one- or two-sentence comeback. The dynamics of this are intriguing and I'm looking forward to seeing how many more pages Mike can string out this exercise in futility.I think I'll just sit back and continue watching the show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueemrld8 Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 I find Mike's responses fascinating. If he isn't just an artificial intelligence conversation application sitting on the DCP server, he is remarkably immune to granting concessions. People write missives with impeccable and irrefutable logic, apparently in hopes of convincing Mike of the error of his ways, and out comes the next one- or two-sentence restatement of what he said over 20 pages ago. It's as if he calculates how to inflict the maximum amount of frustration with the minimum number of words. And then comes the next essay-length post appealing to reason, and then the next one- or two-sentence comeback. The dynamics of this are intriguing and I'm looking forward to seeing how many more pages Mike can string out this exercise in futility.I think I'll just sit back and continue watching the show. very insightfull for a rookie. The force is with you young skywalker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 I find Mike's responses fascinating. If he isn't just an artificial intelligence conversation application sitting on the DCP server, he is remarkably immune to granting concessions. People write missives with impeccable and irrefutable logic, apparently in hopes of convincing Mike of the error of his ways, and out comes the next one- or two-sentence restatement of what he said over 20 pages ago. It's as if he calculates how to inflict the maximum amount of frustration with the minimum number of words. And then comes the next essay-length post appealing to reason, and then the next one- or two-sentence comeback. The dynamics of this are intriguing and I'm looking forward to seeing how many more pages Mike can string out this exercise in futility.I think I'll just sit back and continue watching the show. You know -- I've been formulating this line of thinking in my head for the last day or two, trying to figure out a way to present it and now here, you have done it for me !!!! I try very hard to always be respectful on these boards. You will never find an instance where I have made personal attacks or pre-judged/dismissed someone's comments with a "well you're just a borg of so-and-so corps" or "well you've never marched so what do you know" or "well you're just a old fogie or just a newbie" or whatever. I try to respond to comments in kind and try to push folks to re-examine their own logic and consistency of argument -- thereby examing my own as well. Opinions are opinions, but they should at least be based on fact and truth and have some level of consistency or else you lose all credibility. I try to push folks to make sure that their opinions are credible and will be treated as such. I hope that in doing so, it makes me feel stronger about my own opinions and positions because they are well-thought out and battle-tested. Funny thing is -- I have pushed Hrothgar and Mike both over the years (for example). I don't just push folks that I disagree with. I will challenge someone's comments for logic or consistency or truthfulness even if I agree with the sentiment. I won't accept fallacious arguments even if I agree with the position taken because I think it weakens your side if the arguemtns made on your behalf don't hold water. I doubt highly that anyone could make a definitive statement over where I personally fall on many of these issues by reviewing my posts, because I am always (usually!!) challenging the argument and not necessarily the position. Anyway, I find that most folks when presented with logical and respectful challenges will take that opportunity to review their argument and either strenghten it and/or amend it. I don't usually expect to automatically change folks minds, but I do find that most (including some who are routinely dismissed on these boards as immature or extremist) do respond with thoughful reflection when faced with a respectful, logical retort. I try to do the same when a position I have taken is challenged as well. But I, too, am extremely frustrated with the dynamics of Mike's responses here and in other concurrent threads -- I guess I always think that if I keep plugging away, keep highlighting the points of contention in a logical and coherent way, remain positive and non-personal in my presentation, then eventually the other person with respond in kind. But I see that that is not happening here and is likely not going to happen so I am done trying with ths individual. I admire his passion and I respect the strength of his opinions, but I just don't have the energy or care to respond to inconsistencies or try to point out weaknesses in argument or try to flush out a more in-depth communication with him anymore because I see that it is futile. Thanks for noticing this and commenting on it -- I was beginning to feel that I wa the only one who felt this way -- which was making me all the more frustrated!!!! Anyway, please continue with the debate .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumcat Posted December 21, 2007 Author Share Posted December 21, 2007 You know -- I've been formulating this line of thinking in my head for the last day or two, trying to figure out a way to present it and now here, you have done it for me !!!!I try very hard to always be respectful on these boards. You will never find an instance where I have made personal attacks or pre-judged/dismissed someone's comments with a "well you're just a borg of so-and-so corps" or "well you've never marched so what do you know" or "well you're just a old fogie or just a newbie" or whatever. I try to respond to comments in kind and try to push folks to re-examine their own logic and consistency of argument -- thereby examing my own as well. Opinions are opinions, but they should at least be based on fact and truth and have some level of consistency or else you lose all credibility. I try to push folks to make sure that their opinions are credible and will be treated as such. I hope that in doing so, it makes me feel stronger about my own opinions and positions because they are well-thought out and battle-tested. Funny thing is -- I have pushed Hrothgar and Mike both over the years (for example). I don't just push folks that I disagree with. I will challenge someone's comments for logic or consistency or truthfulness even if I agree with the sentiment. I won't accept fallacious arguments even if I agree with the position taken because I think it weakens your side if the arguemtns made on your behalf don't hold water. I doubt highly that anyone could make a definitive statement over where I personally fall on many of these issues by reviewing my posts, because I am always (usually!!) challenging the argument and not necessarily the position. Anyway, I find that most folks when presented with logical and respectful challenges will take that opportunity to review their argument and either strenghten it and/or amend it. I don't usually expect to automatically change folks minds, but I do find that most (including some who are routinely dismissed on these boards as immature or extremist) do respond with thoughful reflection when faced with a respectful, logical retort. I try to do the same when a position I have taken is challenged as well. But I, too, am extremely frustrated with the dynamics of Mike's responses here and in other concurrent threads -- I guess I always think that if I keep plugging away, keep highlighting the points of contention in a logical and coherent way, remain positive and non-personal in my presentation, then eventually the other person with respond in kind. But I see that that is not happening here and is likely not going to happen so I am done trying with ths individual. I admire his passion and I respect the strength of his opinions, but I just don't have the energy or care to respond to inconsistencies or try to point out weaknesses in argument or try to flush out a more in-depth communication with him anymore because I see that it is futile. Thanks for noticing this and commenting on it -- I was beginning to feel that I wa the only one who felt this way -- which was making me all the more frustrated!!!! Anyway, please continue with the debate .... I'm right there with you. Mike is usually pleasant, and does tend to form his less-than-logical arguments in a generally pleasant manner. But in the end, all I can do is try not to get frustrated when he (and occasionally others) make statements that are contradictory or occasionally flat wrong. But as was said before, he's probably the best "sniper" I've ever seen on a forum. I think Mike missed his calling as a lawyer, because he'd be a #### good one. He never lets logic get in the way of a good retort. But when it comes to a discussion, it's hard to be rational with the irrational. So, let me add to this idea. It's over. If there's a winner, it's Mike, and not for being logical. I just give up. I may post something that corrects a grossly incompetent falsehood, but I'm not willing to argue over things that are not rationally argued. This has turned into an argument no different from "Christian v. Jew" or any religious debate. If you "feel" what you believe, and you are backed by your "faith" because you "just know" something is right, what's the point? You can argue one way or the other until there is no more to talk about, and you've gone no further because you cannot disprove what another believes on faith alone. So I leave Mike, et al, to the Church of Forward. Albeit, I believe that dollars, sense, and butts in seats point out that "forward" isn't always the direction you think it is. I stand behind my belief in the people, opinions, and statistics that are the majority, and I concede that I will never be able to shake the Cult of Electronics from Mike. It is a lost cause. It's unfortunate, because to me, this means that you have to check your logic at the DCP door. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumcat Posted December 21, 2007 Author Share Posted December 21, 2007 And all apologies to FSM. We all strive to meet the example that is your noodly appendage, yet we sometimes come up al dente. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 ... and I concede that I will never be able to shake the Cult of Electronics from Mike. It is a lost cause.It's unfortunate, because to me, this means that you have to check your logic at the DCP door. Funny thing is, most times I'm not even trying to shake the Cult of Electronics -- just trying to tie up flawed logic or inconsistencies within the Cult. But if you're not even willing to recongize even the slightest flaw in your argument (whether or not it has an effect on your point) then I just can't deal with you. It's like me claiming that Brett Favre is the greatest quarteback of all time, then using lots of circular logic and/or incorrect facts to support my claim. And then when you point out a fallacy in my argument, I deny that such fallacy exists. There are plenty of rational, reasonable, factual arguments that Brett Favre is the best quarterback, but if I refuse to allow even incorrect, irrational, unreasonable claims to be challenged it puts my entire credibility (and the credibility of my initial proposition) on the line. Anyway, I'll continue with logical arguments as best I can overall because I still think most folks here on DCP will (eventually!!) respond in kind. Just calling "uncle" in this case ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 And all apologies to FSM. We all strive to meet the example that is your noodly appendage, yet we sometimes come up al dente. FSM ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumcat Posted December 21, 2007 Author Share Posted December 21, 2007 FSM ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 Okaaaaaaaayyyy .... Boy, you let your subscription to the Economist lapse for just a year or two, and you miss a whole new cultural and religious renaissance developing right under your nose .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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