BigW

Individual tolerances can make a huge difference, especially with the tick system. The execution judges could have been on an unholy tear that night as compared to the other show's panel. I guess stuff like that's always been a huge bugaboo with scores throughout the history of the activity.

Nice thought and idea- I remember seeing the Greece Cadets as a young kid in DCA- a very decent corps. Don't forget the Watkins Glen Squires or the Auburn Purple Knights as well from that part of the world- two very decent Junior corps as well. Maybe you'd get Steve Rodinaro to pick up his Mello again for it. It'd take one heck of a herculean effort to contact everyone, gather the troops, and do all of the logistics, Keith. I'd be of no help- I'm not from up in that neck of the woods, but I do wish you the best of good fortune with your idea.

Another thing that Jim just reminded me of indirectly, and this is the next thing that was in place in '79. The Westshoremen were clearly on the move- still near the bottom, but on the move. People saw it. The effect was that no one, I mean no one wanted to be the next corps that we took out. Look at who was ahead of us in 1978 and it's a pretty good list of corps. I don't think we knew Les Ambassadeurs were done. Even so- there were a lot of big names up ahead. Reading's 7th place had a lot to do with percussion problems- the horn line and visual packages were strong, and placing well. And of course you had the Old Guard ahead of us, with the Matadors with Ritchie and Jim Centorino coming off of two strong years, who were also thought of as a corps capable of winning it all, too. The T-Birds were certain to try and get back into the game as well. None of these corps wanted to be our next victim, but the Matadors slipped (why, I don't know- you'd need to hear it from one of them), and another corps was having serious off-season issues that left them exposed to a bunch of crazy 'farmers' from Pea Aay who wanted to get even with the Hurcs and would try and shove anything out of the way that was between us and them to get at the Hurcs- the Crusaders. No DCP back then- just Drum Corps World and the grapevine/rumor mill, but word was out they were down to about 35-40 horns and that there was internal turmoil- heck, no real suprise to anyone familiar with what happened up there in '75 and '76 with the Phoenix! And the word was the Crusaders' show would be new and very innovative, though, with show content added by a "major New York Thespian" as the article in DCW stated. Our show wasn't bad by any stretch of the imagination, bringing back Granada Smoothie, keeping "Impossible Dream", bringing in two pieces from "Chorus Line", "Sing, Sing Sing" as the perc feature with horn support complete with spinning contras... But how were we supposed to deal with something created by a "New York Thespian!?" The more I think of it, this sounds like, and in some ways it was, an early harbinger of another corps' attempts to stage theatrical drama on the field nearly 30 years later, with about the same results. They also got a DCW reporter, Gary Ferris (incidentally a really, really, decent and good guy from talking to him back in the day) in as their Drum Major. All I know is that Reading was white-hot, and that for most of the season, we were pretty much on the same tour with them and also the Crusaders, who had their "Jesus Christ, Superstar" show complete with Jesus himself, with the guard holding him up at gunpoint, parading him around the field, then later pulling out whips and beating the snot out of him while playing the "39 Lashes" section of the musical. I just remember my jaw hit the ground along with most of the rest of us when we got the chance to watch that show and watch the 'drama unfold". I learned then and there that sometimes, simple is better with show concept, and that a color guard shouldn't physically assault Jesus Christ on the field and think they might have a good show that audiences will enjoy and want to see again. Needless to say, they were the next to fall under our little Amish farm tractor from Harrisburg. They fought back as hard as they could, too. Evidently a lot of frantic calls were made to people to come back and save the corps, and later in the season, we'd heard they had around 60 or more horns and were coming for us. They'd even got Corky Fabrizio back in to conduct and beat them into shape, and we all knew Corky was no fool and had his act together and was a pretty ferocious competitor.... (to be continued)

Yes- Colonel Crawford gave us a pep talk in Lewistown in '79 which I still remember to this day. One of the best learning experiences of my life about this activity. I'll talk about that later. Many years later I thought I'd have time to grab him when he started judging in ToB, but I never got the chance to talk about that with him about how much what he said meant to me and also to the corps. I don't know much about RCA/ICA other than it was really important for the corps in that '75 to '78 period- I mostly associate RCA with Erie, who was kind of it's main kingpin during its history. Wasn't Chuck Saia really involved with it? And yeah, Jim- a lot of it was that we were looked down on, weren't we? Hmm... "A buncha Farmers from Pennsylvania who don't know nuthin' 'bout dis whole Drum Corps thing and should be stickin' to their cows and da tractors..." "The Shore End..." "The Blue Slime".... Yeah, I remember that stuff, too. I remember when I heard the 'bunch of farmers' thing and I turned to Rook and said "Huh!? WTF is THAT all about? We're not ALL Amish out here!" I just know we were tired of being the punch line for all the jokes, and that things were slowly but surely being put in place to pretty much scare the living daylights out of the DCA Old Guard and make them get some fresh depends later on...

That story's really sad. Seems the parties involved have their personal turf staked out and personal egos inflated really big where this kid at the start of the story is concerned. It doesn't sound very educational to me. Good brass approach and technique is the same regardless of whether it's in a Wind Ensemble or a Corps. It bothers me that decades later, some folks in academia still have the same stereotypes about corps. Two of us definietly got one prof turned around about this stuff more than a bit because when we showed up for Wind Ensemble, we worked well together and had real enthusiasm and discipline in rehearsal and were very amenable to his directions-- somehting we *both* learned in corps. And usually Mike- us Low Brass guys just made fun of you Sop guys and teased you all to death. And I got the women too, back in the day. We wont talk about now tho, LOL. Anyhow-- I still take what Frank Dorritte told me in 1982 as good advice on choosing a good brass mouthpiece. I think it's still good advice, if someone wishes to add something to the list, please do. I'm always wanting to learn new things. - Try to find one made with quality, with good plating. Not all are. Stuff you find in the case whenyou buy the horn is usually bad and cheap. - For field use, try and find a good flat rim the embrochure can seat properly on, not a round rim. - use as deep as cup and as wide a mouthpiece as one is comfortable with (note comfortable being the operative) And the real trick- make sure the Moutpiece has a nice, open throat. If need be, take the mouthpiece you are using and have it opened out if you need to. The eventual solution for me was a Dennis Wick 6BY- since I do play on a Yamaha 321S, it was designed for the horn, and while it might be a bit small in diameter and uses a small shank- it's got a deep cup and a huge throat to make up for that. I use it on my Kanstul now and also for my Euphonium work in a Brass Quintet. I've guided students towards mouthpieces based on those guidelines and will recommend several options. Not just one. As said before on this thread, one mouthpiece is not the solution for everyone. Everyone has a different embrochure set and center, and different lip tissue/makeup. Also, as Drew said more elequently than I-- if you have two brain cells to rub against one another as a good brass player, you can listen across the ensemble and fit in. -Don't most folks have a recommended and very comprehensive *list* of mouthpieces for use by their students or corps rather than a very specific type!? We did back in the day, and were one of the first DCA units with '82 Westshore to even have something like that, but it was a very large list of quality stuff and no one had a problem finding a good mouthpiece to work for them and everyone was happy. there was also a disclaimer that if the mouthpiece wasn't on the list, just let the staff take a look at it and listen for a bit and see. I don't think anyone had an exception turned down- no one knows it all, for goodness sake. Just my tuppence.

Anyhow, One of the things that was important for the corps through this time was to try and get good people on board. I ended up recruited at a District Band festival- the selling point was- "We're gonna get better, this corps is not going backward, yeah, we were 9th, but that's gonna change fast, and we can use you." They also had a copre of some pretty experienced ex-Yankee-Rebel/Southwind people who were coming up after they folded. Their loss, our gain. So, I'm just turned 16 years old and show up at practice in like Feb or March of '79. Didn't take too long to figure out the piston-rotor, Ray Eyler was a really good guy, etc., everything was pretty cool, the music was fun to play and challenging. It beat the stuff we were doing in our decent competition band at the time. What I didn't know was that I picked a pretty good day to show up and join the corps. The end of the rehearsal, Larry comes down to the band room for his typical wrap-up. I knew from talking and looking at the season schedule that the corps was slated for the Fresh Air Fanfare show for early June, which was a pretty big DCA early-season contest at that time. Most of the old school readers know this already, but DCA pretty much split up the corps into 2 groups and ran 2 5-show contests for most weekends through June into Labor Day, and it was pretty cool that we got slated to be at the "A" show. Westshore was usually a "B" show corps, and it was a pretty big deal when we got to go to the bigger, more prestigious shows with Sky and the Cabs. Larry then reads us the letter from the people who ran the show... in Connecticut...I'll leave it up to the reader to realize just who that exactly means... that told us that they "didn't want a corps of our caliber ruining their fine contest..." and.. could we please pull out of it? You know, if the intent was to humiliate us and and send us scurrying into a dog crate, they really didn't understand us, nor did they have any clue about human psychology. I know Fawber was massively honked off and I'm certain he said something pretty pithy at that point with a grin on his face, most of us did. All I know is that the Hurcs woke up a bunch of pretty quiet and laid-back people who liked to drink beer and lit a 50-meg nuke under our hinders for no real reason at all. All of a sudden, we had a real reason to tighten up and get better. We were flat out angry, and we turned that into a rallying point and a goal. I learned that day never to be publicly disrespectful to an opponent, because you give them fuel to beat the heck out of you. I also learned that it was a bad idea to underestimate your opponent as well. Musashi repeats this over and over again in The Book of Five Rings, and fighter pilots also preach it. I have to wonder how we'd have turned out if they'd have just shut up and let us go to that show. All I know is that it made practices a lot more intense and focused. We knew we wouldn't see them until the Scranton contest in early August, but it gave us something to get ready and to be hungry for.... So, I found out quick things were gonna be pretty daggone exciting here at Westshore. And yeah, they were.....

Thanks, HB, you brought up something I hadn't thought of. I'd say most of the DCA corps were and still are pretty kind folks. We partied with the T-Birds, Bucs, and Cabs during the time I was there and had a great time with all of them. I knew a couple of peeps in Sun, etc. A couple of corps weren't so nice. A couple evidently still aren't, LOL That's also part of the story, too. I think the big reason we weren't a total bunch of jerks was because we knew what it was like to get our butts kicked. We went head to head against the Bucs in their prime, and knew how far we had to go and how much we had to do to even get within spitting distance of them. I think getting beat a lot and learnign how to accept that with dignity had a lot to do with us trying hard to be good winners, too. I don't remember if Larry, Gary, or Dave directly taught that but I know it was part of the whole way of doing things. We still had people that were still on board that not too long before I came aboard that reminded us about getting humiliated, and how much that hurt, too. There was no way guys like us with that kind of background were gonna get rude with anyone who was trying to make it in DCA. heck, I think we thought of ourselves as some kind of red-headed poster step-children of DCA for the fact that if you had some kind of an intelligent plan and busted your X$$, you could make it happen and have some success. And we knew first-hand that busting on people and mocking them was flat out wrong, and made them very dangerous competitors. We had it done to us, and that's also part of the story. And as for '96- I know I felt the corps took care of the unfinished business that was left untended for 14 years. I think I'm not the only one that feels that way. At least we don't end up as one of the front runners of the "Who's the best DCA Corps never to win a Championship!?" conversations. My personal argument is that it's either the Yankee-Rebels or MBI, and I'm rooting for MBI to get their names off of that short list msyelf.

Everyone would agree they'd like to see a unit come from anywhere. The advice so far is very practical and sound. You really need a transparent, well-thought-out, and solid business plan if you want your dream to become reality and then become self-sustaining over the long term. You need people involved in that way that are honest, and understand how to make sure the corps is fiscally sound and responsible. The problem is that most of us involved in the actiivity from a performing and creative way would like to think we can just grab some instruments and peeps and it will just happen. It's not that simple, and if you're not business/financially minded or independently wealthy, you will need help. Practical, sober, and *honest* help in this way unless you want to do this for 3 or less years and then can it because the organization isn't self-sustaining. As it's been said, plan long-term, but make sure everything is in place to succeed and work to a practical, conservative plan. This reminds me of an interview I had for a HS band position up in NE PA. The program had been strong, had had respect and success, but the durector had moved to a better position where he was given more resources and such from the disctrict. The replacement had been a local goold-ole boy with his local connections with a serious drinking problem. Within 3-4 years, the program was destroyed. 10 kids left/program lost 80 percent of its kids, etc. The School Board wanted the successful candidate to get in there and immediately take what was left of the wreckage and immediately get the program back to its previous success that season. Oh-- and the know-nothings on the board didn't like that hoity-toity stuff the band did when it was successful, either. (Heaven forbid the Holst Second Suite in F is inaccessible to the listening public, huh!?) They wanted that big college stuff out of a 20 musician ensemble. Need less to say, I didn't get the job, because I didn't lie through my teeth and make big promises I or no one short of Jesus with a miracle in hand could not remotely keep, the fools in charge had goals and objectives incompatible with each other, and I also told them the program needed a minimum of a 5 year rebuild. About 20 years later, the program has remained in oblivion. So- build conservatively, make sure your goals are realistic and attainable and not conflicting with each other, and make sure what you have will stay around for years to come for you, your friends, and for Maine. Good luck!

Gonna start this ball rolling before I head to bed and add things when I have time-- When you read this section of DCP- yeah, we did do a lot of insanely crazy things, every one of them true and very, very guilty as charged. We did a lot more than that. As Larry put it- "Let's work hard during the day, and I promise- if you do, We'll play hard after the show!" Most of what we've been talking about here is all the playin' hard. Time for something about when we actually picked up instruments and practiced and did that boring stuff before the bus rides and parties. In 1974, this corps was nearly dead, and dead last at DCA Prelims in 15th place with a 41. The corps basically had one objective. Get better every year and move up the rungs. It did. It made DCA Finals for the first time in 1977 at 10th, and moved to 9th in 1978. I'm gonna try and cover some things when I have time from '79 to '84 because it's what I know. I just think a lot of the time that we've been footnoted and pretty much forgotten, buried, like no one really cares. The one thing that's kept me from feeling that is when we've brought back some of the charts from that period and listen to how excited the crowd gets when they hear the Alumni do them. It really touches my heart when they get crazy over those charts. I believe that's really why some of us want to do those charts as part of the performance. It's got nothing to do with not wanting to teach old dogs new tricks- we're pretty capable old dogs. It's just that we did some special things, and people loved that stuff too, and loved us back then. I don't want to see what happened slide down the memory hole. I've read some of what Bush and Sun have online about those years and we sort of figure in to what they say about the period. hey- it's understandably from their points of view, and I learned more about them by reading their stuff. I think it's time someone from our end of things that wore the white aussie hats and those crazy pink plumes tells it from our side. Our story- from a more serious side from that period. Anyhow- on with the story.

Let me get a good look at the thing next time I head to my parents. Could be a Bari, if it is, it's a lot smaller than a Piston-Rotor Bari in about every way possible. That, I am certain of. I just know it's definitely not a sop. Haven't looked at it in years, but readnig the thread makes me want to take a good look at it now.

Well put, Fred. Even in 1982, you had to know where the sonic center of pulse stems from, and it's not necessarily percussion. It's all about physics and the speed of sound, and the wave nature of sound. One must ride the wave forward and through up to the stands. I have to head to work and dinner, but ponder what I just said for a second. I wish I had a blackboard to draw this. Think of ripples in a pond coming out and you will get the idea. Usually if the drill is written carefully, it should take issues like this into consideration- if not, find that spot of sonic ur-source and ride it out. Much also depends on the conductor's competency as well. 'Nuff said about that and how much one can trust the individual at any moment. A competent one is one worth their weight in gold. They do start the train wreck, but after that, one has to also be attentive to sonic pulse centers.

You're doing the right thing to be playing a bit here and there, don't worry so much about your chops, you have the right attitude, the right dream, and a big heart, just get to where you want to go and enjoy yourself to the hilt. It'll be worth it. We're all out there for the love of it in the Alumni Corps gig.

Whoooaaaa.. I may have one of those in my parent's basement! Long story. My family cleaned out an old local fire company's drum and bugle corps equipment and I wasn't sure whet the heck the one horn was. Too small for a Bari, too big for a French Horn or the like. Definitely a G-D bugle, tho. Will try and get a pic uploaded or something when I can get around to it.. Thanks for mentioning that- you may have answered my question as to what the heck we had there.

Quite correct, Tom. Heck- I think in '77 and '78, a perfect score in DCA was 105 points, whioch was how Sun managed that 94.15 IIRC. One can massage rubrics, descriptors, and numerical scales to put the numbers where they want them when the sheets are developed. You could have a champion with a score of 52 if you set the rubrics that way, thought I'd think no one would be pleased with that kind of stunt. As long as one has room to fit corps in the appropriate boxes and the descriptors are good and clear for both the judge and for the competitors where everyone understands where they have to be to earn a certain number, it's a win-win all around. Nothing worse than confusing/conflicting verbage and nebulous stuff on a judging sheet. I've seen them out there, and it's not a good thing for someone trying to figure out what they need to do to excel in that situation. Glad to see DCA has something everyone's comfortable and confident with. Ken's a thoughtful and very sincere guy. Good to know he did a great job.

What would I do if it were gone? Go to museums, concerts, and sporting events like I have been doing, sir. Again- heaven forbid anyone criticise or join in lock-step to support something that perhaps we see as moving some directions that are not healthy. Blind and unswerving affection such as yours isn't healthy. As we see now with what's been going on for a bit here in the US, "Change" is not always good. "Change for the sake of change" can be extremely misguided and insanely foolish. It can also provide great success for the right risk-takers with the *right* ideas for change and innovation rather than just doing things for the sheer sake of 'change'. I see many DCI units trying that route, and they're not reaching to their core audience because it's seen by that audience as a foolish kind of change rather than thoughtful and exciting change that provides a real enhancement to the arena of ideas and artistry the activity is and can be. I'd think twice about the accusation about "living in the past". It's a typical statement casually thrown out by the 'accept everyting or else' crowd. Disregard for tradition and history in this activity usually results in at best a medicore result and the fans wondering what the heck is going on on the field and a nice golf clap for the corps when all is said and done. And no, I and most people who criticize or question are not sitting here asking people go back to Piston-Rotor horns (which I did play and have no nostalgic feeling for, by the way, they were awful) and to perform symmetrical drill and high-step 8 to 5 like you would like to accuse us of wanting the activity to return to. No. There's been a lot of positive innovation in the activity. I attended Clinics by George Zingali in 1984 when he effected brilliant and innovative changes. Those changes were very, very carefully thought out by him at an extreme level. They worked. What he created then was the basis for the modern visual vocabulary of the activity. They re-defined the acitvity in a way just about everyone bought into. Lately, the well's ran dry in that area, and creative staffs at times seem to be grabbing at straws for something- anything new and different that might get them some success rather than really making total sense as art. There are some DCA units that might stand 'guilty as charged' there as well. People aren't buying into a lot of the stuff going on now and for good reasons. It's not exciting at times. It can be very homogenous. It starts to look much the same and sound the same for many units, over and over. The groups who have a distinct and individual flavor tend to do a lot better and evoke powerful crowd reactions. That falls under 'tradition'-- something us old fogies who are supposedly out of touch usually value. PR takes a very close look at those things when they develop program, by the way. Is it any coincidence that they usually elicit strong crowd reactions as a result of that? If the activity went under- it's not my fault that the big business that it has become failed to be attentive and responsive to the needs and desires of its dedicated and loyal customer base. If a business fails to do that- it will fail, and it shouldn't be propped up for the sake of propping it up. Customers have tried speaking up and get responses much like yours. Shut up and take the product as offered without any criticsms or negative vibes because we know what's best for you. Otherwise, you'll kill our business. That's not good customer relations, is it? You're not going to win hearts and minds with that attitude. You lose them. We older folks have more buying power. I can go to a show and not worry about buying a couple shirts and caps now. And I did at Scranton. When I was a young buck, it meant I'd prolly eat hush puppies and a small coke for dinner after the show instead of a meal when I hit the souvie stand. Being transparent and responsive to the needs of your customers on every level (i.e. the corps and their fans) is what will guarantee success for the activity regardless of what three letters are used. Attitudes like yours with the "go ahead and leave you old fart and keep living in your past, take it or leave it because what we do is valid and you're just stupid and old" are the real divisive ones, not ones that call things into question when they don't make sense or make the customer think they'd rather spend the money heading to an IndyCar race or the National Air and Space Museum instead of a corps contest because they get far more entertainment value and intellectual stimulation for the time and money spent. Provide me with real answers to the problems instead of whining, ducking the issues, and telling me and others that we're old and backward and to stay locked in our log cabins with the dirt floors, huh? A lot of us 'old' folks are pretty well educated and out there doing a lot of good in a lot of ways you might not even imagine for the activity *and* are very open to 'change' and innovation when it makes artistic *sense* and it works! And when it does, we know how to yell and cheer for a corps, too.

Quite welcome! And believe me-- When I went to college to become an educator, I realized I had to clean up my act after 6 years of DCA. I worked really hard at choosing words carefully so I didn't end up drug in front of a School board over casually dropping a 15 megaton F-Bomb. So, yeah, I have become very careful, thank goodness. I'm glad I defused a bit of what's going down. But there is one serious question, besides whether I can get the one girl to play the contra-kazoo in my corps that will get a Standing O every time we go out-- Where does the line end up that the art form is no longer "Drum and Bugle Corps" and something else entirely different? I think after 40 years that we might be getting closer to that line if we use that seminal 1971 season in Junior Corps as a yard maker to deliniate the first big shift in paradigms. Some people are speaking up now that things aren't right, some more elequently than others, and it's all good. Some people also argue it's okay for things to go down this path, and that's their right too though I find many of their arguments specious- not all of them, many of them. The line will be different for everyone. No two individuals will agree on where that is. The next question will be what kind of person will go to a show once that line is crossed (I have some guesses as to who) and whether enough of them will make the activity financially viable or even a performing art that's worthwhile enough to appreciate.

"We should all band together to support drum corps".... We can also all be blind fools that readily accept and slavishly lap up everything that's thrown our way as valid. I would believe that we all agree this activity is a performing art. As an art, it can be subject to criticism. It *should* be subject to criticism! In fact, because of its competitve nature, it's held up to a very exacting and insanely thorough criticism. I find the "How dare you say anything negative because you're divisive and a hater!" crowd to be tiresome and sad. They rankle me. We all agree it's not the performers that cause the problems and the criticism that's frequently leveled. As a performer, all they can do is perform the bejeezus out of what is given them to perform to finish as high as they can. People have a right to criticize and react positively or negatively to a given program. Otherwise, we end up never knowing how genuine any reaction to what we do is! I for one would NOT want to stand on the sideline at the end of any contest and even think in the back of my head that the crowd applause and reaction is because they applauded regardless of what they really thought about the program but felt obliged to cheer and clap to make me feel good. How empty, unsatisfying, and shallow that would be. Why bother hitting the field at that point. What this individual is telling all of us is effectively this: We all go out for fine dining, spend some serious bucks and are then told what we ordered or expected isn't what we'll get, and we end up with some kind of pretentious chunk of carved tofu on a mulit-grain bun artistically surrounded by parsley and colorful flakes of some kind of plant matter instead of that 22 ounce juicy prime rib we expected to get and paid for several months before we showed up. And, for the sake of not hurting the cook's feelings or the establishment's management, we should shut up and eat to support them and the waiter and waitresses, who incidentally did provide fantastic and very courteous service, who are, by the way, quite faultless for what the management and cook did. I'm tired of the touchy people who can't stand any form of criticism of their art and try and use the performers as their shield to protect themselves from any negative comments, no matter how well thought out or not those criticisms may be. Toughen up. If what you believe in as art is valid, that art will rise to the top, especially in this environment. A lot of it hasn't risen to the top from what I'm observing. If someone wishes to try and ram what they think is valid up everyone's nostrils and it's still not accepted, it is certainly their right to keep ramming away, but maybe they shouldn't expect or demand a blind, slavering positive audience reaction to their art, nor should they expect a high placement when it all shakes out at the end. All I know is this. Many folks are making it clear with their wallets in many different areas about what they would like to see at a contest. It seems to be the only way some of these pretentious folks who dish out the tofu to their unwilling eaters because they think that's what they should feed us will finally listen and serve up the steak. One more thought for the madding crowd before I leave--How about I bust out a kazoo and hum some Wagner into a mike on the sideline while I mark time wearing a tinfoil hat while I get someone else to smack a pie tin with a stick while they march around behind me and I call it "drum corps" while I'm at it and expect everyone to enthusiastically support my artistic endeavor that I have worked so hard on creating unquestioningly. I want that standing O, baby! That's kind of where that kind of 'accept everything and support it unquestioningly' attitude is angling towards- isn't it? It's late. I worked hard tonight, come home and read this, and well, I just felt the need to speak up as politely as anyone can at 345AM after their jaw hits the floor rerading that silliness. And... I hope a few people laughed at the Kazoo thing. One heck of an image, huh?

DCA ditched the tick system sometime post 1984. When, I do not know. ToB went to subjective scoring in 1985. This I do know for fact. DCI went I think to subjective some time around 1984-86. I am unsure exactly when in that period.

Jim, those are EXACTLY the shows I've been talking about. Thanks for the memory jog. And along with your memories of exhibition corps, New Horizons out of Dansville, NY was at the Erie show.

Glen- there were lower scores than that 27, just never publicly announced. The shows where this happened were in Erie and in Ohio. Not to stir the soup up. Dunno if anyone has hard recap copies anymore. It could be those scores were in the 28 range and you're right as well, too. But yeah, scores were announced as higher than they actually were in those cases. No ifs, ands or buts on that- and they were lower than a 37.

I wanted to further address the comments about the cameraderie issue after thinking more about it. We're dealing with large organizations, where not everyone gets along, no matter what. Corps isn't all Rainbow Brite, Care Bears, and Strawberry Shortcake no matter how much we wish it were or like to tell people, or look back at it with very thick rose colored bifocals when we get older. Now- I can see positing a hypothesis that because there are older, more mature people in most All-Age Corps that stay with the corps longer, that perhaps there might be a better sense of that kind of thing, but it's nowhere near a proven fact. It's just a hypothesis. I have no clue if it's correct or not! My guess is that in both ends of the activity, you have corps that are closer and farther apart in terms of the relationships between the members. A lot can depend on staff and whether they drive wedges between sections of a corps. That's been known to happen. Some of it can be corps traditions that might be very encouraging towards creating a closer-knit corps. Some Junior corps do have traditions that help with this. From my experience, there are people I marched with I'll stand with and by in a heartbeat (at least 95% of the at least 200+ people I had to have marched with over 6 seasons) and the less than 1 percent I'm not on speaking terms with. (I can think of only two individuals I won't speak to off the top of my head)- the rest are kinda in that gray area. I doubt those percentages are a whole lot different for the rest of opur experiences regardless of whether we marched DCI or DCA.. Most of us are good and kind people. One individual who came to Westshore when I was there who came from a top end DCI unit didn't do a lot to engender cameraderie and was a divisive influence, let me tell you. I don't think she was remotely typical of the kind of people who march with that corps at all. My guess is that they might have tossed her butt out! I just think you can't throw a blanket over DCI and DCA and say "one of them has more closer-knit corps than the other" without a serious study of it, and I have an educated guess that study would prove inconclusive. Time for bed

There was at least one lower score than any of those that have been mentioned so far, not announced at at least two contests around 1979-1980-ish.. A higher score was announced at retreat which did not affect placement. IIRC, one of the actual numbers was a 23.25, the other might have been something like a 20.85. It's hard to forget those kinds of numbers being bandied about- those numbers make yah wince! I can tell everyone that many of us in the Westshoremen were honked off at what was done at that time to save face, in part because it meant we didn't have the DCA low score record anymore, but no one knew it at the time so we still caught the razzing about it, and in part because no one worried about saving face for *us* in 1974, LOL! I know the guys who were in the corps in '74 were by far the most steamed about it and we all understood why. One of the black marks of the corps was finally erased, and we were still stuck with it and didn't deserve to be. A few pats on the back, a couple cold ones, and reminding them at least WE knew the truth got them a bit more laid back about it. I do know there were scores in the teens in some Junior shows in that late 70's era, even maybe a 10-13 IIRC out west. It wasn't uncommon for the more zealous execution judges who knew how to mark and cde the sheets quickly or used the clicker-counters to zero out units in execution. Any questions about all of that from the young'ins as to what I mean, I'll gladly explain later. I need sleep!

Seen the guard on YouiTube, Jeff. A bit far for me this weekend- but I know from watching the videos that they're a group anyone who's been a Westshoremen member can be very proud of.

Hmm. Lack of Camaraderie? Bah! I say, BAH a thousand times to that accusation! I watched Spirit and Crossmen play for each other a few years back at East. That shoots that little accusation down in a heartbeat. It's there. Read the DCI forums and you see those old friendships around, just like we have them here. I correspond off and on with someone in Spirit to encourage them as a growing young person who's trying to find their direction. I went to see a former student in The Cadets on tour and brought out a cooler full of care package stuff (fruit, Coca-Cola, candy bars... nope- no beer LOL) for him and his friends. It was deeply appreciated. We ALL know how we feel after a long hot practice block. I know Hair Bear helps kids trying to scrape up enough cash to do DCI. And we're Senior Corps guys reaching out to our friends and compadres. They reach back too, you know. If you were in a corps, Junior, Senior, whatever- it transcends everyting. We all have shared experiences regardless of where we're from and what we exactly did and those who don't get that are usually regarded as the pretty sad, shallow, and lonely people in this activity. The camaraderie is there. You're just not looking very hard if you throw that accusation out so quickly.

LOL. It depends. All I know is that when I had a choice to go to DCA Scranton or DCI Allentown this year, I decided to go to Scranton. Got fantastic seats and had a great time, ran into many people I've known, met some new peeps. Saw some really solid shows. I was happy with my decision. Since I didn't get my ticket requests into DCI in February, I knew I would've been consdigned to the 25 yard line seats, so that's also my fault. Money was tight, and I couldn't plan that far ahead. So be it. No real beef there. Still wish they had the Prelims/Open Seating concept but that's not gonna fly anymore, tho as a young fellow, I loved going to A-Town an hour before the show started to stake out my perch and get burned to a crisp and watch a bunch of corps, many that aren't around now.. Great memories. Always has been more expensive to perform in DCI corps, even 30 years ago. Never was an issue to me. Auditioning- the only problem is that now, you don't see the 14-16 year old kids getting the DCI opportunities like they used to. Now, these same kids have their competition HS band- if they're lucky to be in a decent one- to provide some of the experience for them. Then again, if they're lucky they can hit a DCA corps at 16 and get in if they have some ability like I did back in the day. Perhaps-- some people need to realize that with the death of all the local drum corps, those corps were more or less effectively replaced by HS Band competition programs. Coincidence? Likely, yes. Might be worth a research paper. DCI Drum majors- *shrug*. Kevin Hagopian of the Guardsmen and Doug Tholo of the Scouts back in the day were exciting and dynamic personalities. L'Insolite's DM was one wild, fired-up dude. The PR conductors are certainly dynamic personalities today. Don't paint them all with a broad brush. I probably dated myself with mentions of the Guardsmen and Tholo as a performer- didn't I!? Not every DCA Drum Major's a white-hot ball of fire, either. As for shows- hit or miss. I could say that for DCA as well. Seems some creative staffs understand the personalities of their corps and try and project it, others take a far more cautious approach trying to score/make finals/re-make the corps to suit their own tastes/innovate for the sake of change itself without understanding the change properly and usually fail miserably. I don't need to name names, we all know who's been guilty as charged. I see some groups/teams/corps (whatever term is in vogue) trying hard to connect with the crowd and put together exciting, AND thoughtful, AND innovative programs whether DCA or DCI, don't panic- some people still get it. Those that don't will still get the golf claps and end up at the bottom of their respective heaps.