torn8o

The only thing is, if mythbusters were to do the test, they would have to compare the G Bugle to a Bb horn with the exact same build (ans size) in the bore and bell. Any other experimentation would be unfair.

Right you are. Hmmm. Odd. I mean, the more I think (as we discuss), the more convinced I become that the faster the taper, the more open the horn is. I mean it's physics. Larger space allows for more air to move through - and faster. Makes me wonder how much we are brass players rely on perception. HAHAHAHA! We could go on forever. :) Again, I base my views on physics. The more space you have for the air to move (i.e. larger bore and bell), the faster the air moves through making it easier to play loud. Enjoyable discussing this with you. :)

I really don't think so. I think it is that simple because I've actually spent a lot of time studying this very subject (both reading and "lab") over the last number of months. Right, but now we also get into the issue of it not just being about the "bore" but the "bell" as well. Large bore trumpets - while some may have the same bore size as a bugle - do not have the same size and build in the bell (except for one that I now know of) - which in my opinion is where the biggest difference in volume comes from. Well, I certainly agree with you there. Not really the point of our discussion though, is it? Well, that's fine. But may I recomend doing some testing with a DB meter on different horns of different builds in your experimentation so that you have more to base your views on than just "opinion"? It is a scientific issue we are discussing here (and an enjoyable one at that) and it is actually possible to have more than just "an opinion" behind your views. I feel as though I do myself now that I've spent some time doing just that very thing.

Yes, but my point is that the earliest and most traditional bugle is the 0 valve bugle pitched in Bb. All others are later derivatives. Therefore, if we are going to be "true purists" in regards to what a "real bugle" is, Bb is the most traditional key of a "bugle".

The build of a horn (larger = more "freeblowing") IS what makes a horn "easier to play loud on". Which is why for gigging I have a large bore horn to use when I play lead. And that is for no other reason than the G horn being larger and more conical in build. So, get or have yourself made a larger; more conical Bb horn and your problem will be solved.

I'm afraid I will have to respectuflly disagree based on my own research and testing. DB test a G soprano bugle (at any distance) with a Bb horn of the same build if you can find one (I know a place) and you will find that it's the build that makes a horn project more, not the key. Don't mean to sound argumentative but I can't ignore this one. I've spent too much time researching it on my own to not say anything.

I'm going to be very brief on this thread because I've been long winded on other posts on this subject already. What makes a horn louder (and also what makes a bugle a bugle) is the bore size - and in the case of a bugle is also the size and shape of the bell - NOT THE KEY IT'S IN. I would also like to mention (for the sake of a certain person who I see lurking this thread right now) that a true bugle (no valves) is pitched in the key of Bb - NOT G. So if we are going to be "purists", lets be "purists". A G BUGLE is in actuality a "modern departure" from a "true bugle". Not the other way around.

Chris, thank you for reminding me of reason #453,256,531,210 why I DON'T miss living in Southern California.

I don't know why it was taken down but it's back up now. Even more official than that, it's on the DCI website now http://dci.org/news/news.cfm?news_id=54c93...80-6dffbe274e5f Who knows what happened to the first posting of the article but it's a done deal now and I'm glad! :)

Actually, it's not a "new name". I don't want to get into this debate or appear to be a "side taker" (in the debate itself) but I do want the corps to be talked about fairly. The name listed on the article of approved new corps on http://www.dci.org (can't arue with them) is "Velvet Knights" (i.e. "VK"). Their "official business name" is "Velvet Knights Youth Arts Orginization" (i.e, "VKYAO"). Believe it or not, "the old VK" had an official business name of their own as well. It was "VKI" (i.e. "Velvet Knights, Inc"). On the field, they were called "Velvet Knights" and sometimes "VK" for short. The new VK will also be called "Velvet Knights" and "VK" for short. I'm not going to get into a big long discussion on the legalities and controversies of this "name technicality" as I've heard it called several times this year. It's complicated and I'm not sure I understand it all myself. Either way, the corps has been approved to exist and now approved to compete in DCI so it really doesn't matter what we think. They are a corps called the "Velvet Knights" and all indications point toward a corps that WILL reflect the old corps style and character. This leads me to my final point..... The corps' mission statement is very clear that their intentions are to reflect the style and character of the "old VK". So, I honestly do not see why there would be a problem if they went the rout you seem to be against. It's what they've set out to do and how they have chosen to be identified. It WILL be "their identity". Regardless of what anyone's opinion on that is, it's their corps...not yours and not mine either and their choice how they will structure the entertainment value of their program. They are indeed a new corps but just like if a new Division III corps wanted to call themselves the "Vanguard" and play Phantom Of The Opera wearing red, green and white uniforms...and say that they are doing it to honor the Vanguard we all know today, I don't see where there would be a big deal. In VK's case, it's even less of a big deal because the old VK is gone. Why not capitolize on the name the corps has chosen by utilizing a style that not only the old VK but NOBODY is around to provide anymore? Impulse, though still around (thank God because I like that corps too) and wearing baseball caps has even gone in a different direction with their style of show these last few years. There is no patent on the style and nobody around utilizing it (other than the Bridgemen Alumni) so - why not? That's my opinion on the whole thing. I'm anxious to see this corps. I'll be honest, I started off very skeptical about this project and have grown - after lots of discussion with some friends who are on the staff as well as friends that are outsde but somewhat close to the corps - to not only "approve" of it myself (if I may use that word...as if what I would "approve" should matter), but I have grown to support it as well (as can be seen by my signature). Afterall, DCI has even chose to approve and support it at this point...since they have officially "approved" them (see http://dci.org/news/news.cfm?news_id=54c93...80-6dffbe274e5f ). If "DCI" approves and supports them, so do I. Have a great season Velvet Knights. I can't wait to see your contributions to the activity. You can officially consider me a "VK FAN"! :)

Since there is a thread in the Div II/III forum centered around "favorite years of VK", I thought I would start a similar thread on VK's nemesis corps here. Vote for your all time favorite year of Freelancers and then post come comments regarding some of the years that stand out in your mind. Since I can't come up with anything original, I am going to rip my friend Ryan H. Turner off and use emoticons to comment on the above years. I'll start with the 80s... - 1981 :) - 1982 b**bs - 1983 - 1984 - 1985 :spit: - 1986 (folded) - 1987 (back) - 1988 - 1989 b**bs - 1990 - 1991 - 1992 :wink: - 1993 - 1994 My vote will be for 1991 (a little biased perhaps but oh well).

This is great news! Congratulations Velvet Knights! I can't wait to see your show! Have a great season!

Anymore? People didn't want us to be successful when I marched in the corps in the early 90s. And it was the same way before I marched Blue Devils (when I was in Freelancers). It's no different today. People love to hate the Blue Devils. People always have. It's the corps to beat and the corps to hate. Kind of sad, but that's how it is. Only "3 different years"? And they have never had "the benefit of the doubt". The Blue Devils have always been the most scrutinized corps on the field...by judges, fans and members and staff from other corps. It's no different today. "Only in the last decade"? Are you familliar with the years 1984, 1988, 1990 and 1995? Nothing has "changed". It's always been this way.

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Sorry, but I have to disagree with you here. It can be...and is a "carreer" for many people. Just ask any caption head of a DCI top 12 corps. Granted, some of them do other work as well but still...it IS a "job". And what a great "job" it is. "Music Education". That IS what drum corps instructors give their members. And visual and guard instructors give another type of education. It's ALL education and if the kids are as important as you say they are, they deserve to have a top quality PROFESSIONAL and WELL PAID staff in front of them giving them their MONEY"S WORTH of a top quality summer's education. OTHERWISE, the kids would be wasting a large portion of their money. The kids are not on the road just to "eat and sleep". They are there to do drum corps...which is an activity that DEMANDS the very best out of everyone involved. Which also means the very best in instruction. That my friend, does not come without a price and it is absolutely WRONG to try and say that such an instructor should not EXPECT to be paid according to his or her duties. That instructor deserves what they get. And I'm sorry, you cannot put "volunteers" in the same camp as instructors. Not to down play what they do, but there is a huge difference between the two and their duies. And I'm talking mostly in regards to "caption heads" here (which Mr. Mapes IS). I understand that "techs", depending on what level of a "tech" they are can sometimes be in a different camp... perhaps very close to the camp of a "volunteer". Especially the young "just aged out" types of techs. But again, I'm not talking about those types of instructors. Although even if I was, if you give a "tech" a contract, it's your OBLIGATION to provide the money you have promised the instructor IN FULL! But even if I did agree with what you said above (and I don't), it is absolutely wrong to give a staff member a contract and then breach it. It's illegal! And even more sickening is the idea that this director would put Mr.Mapes on a blocked email spam list simply because he no longer wants to get the emails requesting for what he earned. No matter how you slice it, "Mr. Nonofyourbusiness", there is no excuse or justification for doing what this diector did by not following through on what he promised his staff members on a signed contract. Plain and simple, it's just wrong. Lastly... What I am about to say may not be very popular, but something I believe very strongly. If a corps can't pay it's bills, which includes paying a staff what your contract states you will pay them, you don't deserve to have your corps on the field. The reason so many corps can't "feed, house and transport their members" (as you mention to be so important) is because they in many cases don't have the business mind to do the activity right to begin with. Perhaps instead of saying that "there are too many people trying to make drum corps a career", we should be saying that "there are too many wanabee drum corps directors biting off way more than they can chew even starting a drum corps to begin with". I heard a story recently about a now folded corps (which I will keep nameless) showing up at the same school as a DCI top 12 corps (which I will also keep nameless). The director of the top 12 corps apparently browsed by the corps feeding area and saw the kids eating "cake and water" for BREAKFAST! I'm sorry, but that is a corps which should not be on the field until either their director figures out how to run a business or the directorship changes hands all together.

Um...sorry in advance for the slightly sarcastic reply I am about to give...but....Go back and read the title of the thread again. The thread IS called...."1988.. an incredible year of CHANGE!" So, anyone talking about "change in DCI toward the current progression of the activity" IS "OT"! Thank you very much.

I've heard some varying stories on it. For sure, I do know (from the mouth of Jim Clark) that the story as we hear it today and on this thread ("press box"..etc) is in fact an "urban myth". But...there is another story out there that I was told by a contra player from 1979 Spirit...that does sound realistic or at least possible. That story being that at one point in 79 when they were rehearsing "IN DOORS"...the vibrations of the hornline's sound caused a SMALL LOOSE window going from the kitchen to the cafatiera to rattle itself out of it's socket and fall to the ground...obviously "shattering". Perhaps not as impressive of a story as the sound waves themselves actually causing the window itself to "shatter" but still, for even something like that to happen is pretty cool. I can't confirm that even THAT story is true because I was not there personally, though a contra player from that year is a pretty good source if he is not actually LYING about it. Though again, that particular story is not exactly far fetched and could in fact happen even if a vaccum cleaner was too close to such a window. Certainly more possible than "a press box window shattering". Who knows for sure? Probably nobody ever will unless someone happens to have a home video...which as we know was not very common in that day. (shrug) Jim clark DID confirm though that they did NOT actually "shatter a pressbox window with their sound" and even called it an "urban myth". But, if there was ever a hornline that could, it would be that one. Specifically 79. BUT HEY!!!! Even if BOTH stories are fabrications (and I have a feeling they are...even the one I mentioned), perhaps it's TIME to actually MAKE it a reality with this year's Spirit hornline. Ya know? You would have to have a pretty well in tune hornline with some SERIOUS overtones to make it happen. Overblowing would not do it. Hmmm...new goal for 07 maybe?

For me it's a toss up between four (one of which I actually DID march and would gladly re-live a second time if I could jump in a time machine). - Spirit 1979 Some talk about 80 a lot. Yes, 80 was amazing, but if you listen to the recording, 1979 actually had a little more on it. Plus, the intonation was better. I've talked to old Spirit alum who agree. - Blue Devils 1988 To this day, the best soprano line I have ever heard. *sigh* This third one hurts to mention because I had this opportunity handed to me and foolishly I passed it up... - Blue Devils 1994 (all I can say is "oops") BUT...I can at least say that I actually DID march one show that if I had the opportunity, would love to re-experience... - Blue Devils 1995 (thankfully, I came back and TOOK this opportunity. I love this hornline and love the music. What a great way to age out) Sorry, I know you asked for one but I just could not skip any of these. But if I must choose only "one" of the above, "Spirit 1979" would be my choice.

With all due respect to the great response you gave, I have to disagree with you on your last point about drum corps being more "slotted" than in decades past. I actually think it's the opposite. In recent years, you've had corps like the Glassmen (which is one even you mentioned), Boston, Carolina Crown, Blue Knights and Bluecoats place in the top 6 and beat some very heavy hitters (one of which was "the Cadets" who you also mentioned...getting beat by Bluecoats last year). In decades past, that type of thing didn't happen much if at all. In the late 80s and early 90s, the top 6 (actually...top 7) was basically reserved for Star, Cavies, Blue Devils, Santa Clara, Phantom, Cadets and Madison. If you were not one of those corps, you did not stand a chance unless you were extremely and undoubtably better than one of the others. Crossmen is the one corps that comes to mind (beating Vanguard and Phantom in 92) and at the time that was the most wide eyed upset of the century. So, I tend to think that with these examples (especially looking at what Bluecoats have accomplished the last two years), that the activity is actually much less slotted than in years past. Heck, they even had the guts to dump Madison out of finals recently, which at one time would have never even been fathomed.

It's impossible to read body language and facial expression on the internet. As a result, sometimes how we wish to come across is not how we end up coming across. This is a prime example of such a case. GMichael completely misunderstood my original post and as a result blew this whole thing way out of proportion. I don't fault him at all. It's just what happens sometimes. At least a few people understood my message, and for that, I have no regrets for starting this thread. Hopefully by now, GMichael also understands my intent. If not, feel free to send me a PM and I will gladly try and explain my point a little clearer. I will not do it publicly on this thread though. All that will do is cause more possibilities for confusion and flame bait.

Not my point. Sorry you took it that way.

Like Tom, I was inspired to start up a more positive thread in the midst of all of the negativity we are drowning in on this message forum. Here is something (positive) for everyone to chew on. I think we live in the best day of drum corps ever. Why? Because we live in a day where we can literally enjoy EVERY type of drum corps imaginable. There is something for EVERYBODY! For those who are old school and prefer what we saw in the 60s 70s & early 80s - We have this wonderful activity that has absolutely EXPLODED in recent years called "Alumni Corps". Unlike the casual get togethers of yesteryear, these corps (I think largely by inspiration of the 27th Lancers 1994) are SERIOUS and sometimes CARBON COPIES (see Bridgemen 06) of what their selective corps were in the past. And there is even a championship for these corps with a "peoples choice" judging system at the DCA World Championships. I must say, if you have not experienced it yet, sitting there at the DCA Alumni Spectacular is literally like sitting in a Drum Corps time machine. You see some of the very best of what both DCI and DCA had to offer (did I mention the Bridgemen yet?) in decades gone by. And typically you see "G Bugles...many of which are not even "three valve". Oh, and if your ears are sensitive to "loud volume", you might want to bring some ear plugs because these corps are VERY LOUD! For those who like a little old school and a little modern drum corps wrapped up in an entertainment driven balance of members from all ages, there is this wonderful activity called DCA (competitive) championships (i.e. "Class A and Open Class"). Here, you will get somewhat of a blend of the old and the new (some still even use G Bugles). This is a wonderful place to be entertained by a somewhat "weekend warriorish" drum corps activity that loves both the cutting edge and the old drum corps charm. They like to call it "Drum Corps For the People By the People". For those who are interested in the evolution of the activity and what the next new trend is - DCI still remains the front runner in ALL marching arts activities and remains on the cutting edge. Prepare to have your breath taken away by corps who hold very strict audition requirements and the most innovative designs that are literally un-predictable every year. You will see things that in some cases seem impossible. And it's all being done by KIDS no older than the age of 22. I believe the very best of today's youth are represented in these drum corps and it's ALL a CLASS ACT from the bottom placing corps to the number one corps walking home with a ring and a gold medal! For those of you who get dizzy easily, you might want to bring some sort of "headache" pill with you because the drill designs can literally make your eyes pop out of their sockets. And these corps are musically very impressive. And yes, they DO still get very loud at times - despite what some people say. :) What's my point? My point is, stop complaining about the side of the drum corps activity you don't like. Ulike any other era in drum corps history, you HAVE what YOU want in 21st century drum corps whether you are a purist, modernist or a little of BOTH. And if only one of the above interests you, FINE. Take your pick. You have a smorgasbord sitting right in front of you. If it's old school you like, don't waste your time complaining about DCI, just stick with following the Alumni Corps Activity. If you like a little more of a "blend", spend your dollars and efforts at DCA. If you like the modern evolving aspects of the activity, just spend your time at DCI. Or if you are like me and like ALL OF THE ABOVE, then plan on having a very BUSY...yet HAPPY summer dinning from a LARGE buffet of "all you can eat drum corps" at "ALL OF THE ABOVE" mentioned activities within the drum corps world. :) *stepping down from soap box" Have a great summer - in whichever side of the drum corps activity you choose. I apologize to the mods. But honestly, where would I place a thread like this? It's about DCI as much as any other activity. There really is no one "forum" on DCP for a message like this. It's about all of it. Hopefully, you will understand, realize the "positive" nature of this thread and not close it. After all, it's nice for the kids in the DCI activity to see threads that are not beating them down with negativity. Not that all of the threads here do that. I'm just thinking - "the more the better". :)

Fantastic post! :) Like you, I'm inspired to start a new thread as well. Stay tuned. :)

I said what I am about to say (or very similar) in another post recently. The reason "jazz in drum corps" is so different than what it was in the 70s and 80s is likely because what "jazz bands" play in today's music business is so different. Think about your leading big bands of the 21st century - Brian Setzer Orchestra - Very little of what your classic "Buddy Rich jazz big band fans" would call "standard jazz". Most of his stuff has a rock/pop element to it. University Of North Texas One O' Clock Lab Band - Though a University band, their recordings remain as some of the best sold big band albums in the market. Most of their stuff today is not what they played 15, 20 - 30 years ago. Very "symphonic" in many cases and also occasionally "pop" as well. Very rarely do you hear "standard jazz by this program anymore. Harry Connic Jr. - He tries to stay as close to "standard" as possibile, but even he lately has experimented more in the area of a "popish" sounding "jazz". Gordon Goodwin's Big Phat Band - SOME of his stuff is very straight ahead...but much of what is "popular" is not. Now, I can sit here and complain about "big bands" not sounding like they did in the 70s and 80s just as easily as with drum corps. OR, I can be glad that "big bands" still exist and are a part of mainstream music regardless of how different it might be than 20 years ago. Likewise, we also should be glad that "jazz" (BE IT AS MODERN AS IT IS TODAY) still exists in some form in the drum corps activity regardless of how different it might be than 20 years ago. Furthermore, "straight ahead jazz", as much as I love it represents LESS THAN 1% of the market in today's music industry. So why would we expect a drum corps to want to limit their entire show on a style of music that is no longer as popular as it once was? I say we move forward right along with the industry.

Wait! Hold it! You need to answer the second half of the question on the post you responded to... THIS is a "yes" answer. Because of the departure corps like Blue Devils, Star, Spirit and VK made that year, they all had more uniqueness to their identity than in years prior. Don't think for a minute that these corps were unique because they were "old school". Not saying you are thinking this. I'm just trying to point out that what made this year so grand was because of how "different" it was from the norm. And how quickly we forget, people complained about the "departures" of that year. Such as BD getting new unis for the first time in many years...leading to many more unis to come. VK was "SORT of humorous but not quite the slapstick people were used to" (other than the bullfighter getting ###### on). Spirit left their southern musical style for a more symphonic sound (I LOVE this show, by the way). Star left their "entertaining show style" (Disney, movie themes and circus shows etc...) for a more "serious" approach that would get even more deep in years to come. Suncoast left their Kentonesque "symphonic jazz" sounds for a more "symphonic"show. People in that day hated that year because it was "different". Yet, we sit here now and recognize that those corps were all "unique". All that to say, the more things "change", the more they stay the same (as the old saying goes). If you guys want a drum corps activity with some "uniqueness" and corps with their own "unique identity", take a lesson from 1988 (one of the most "departing" years ever) and stop fighting the changes that are being made and proposed in todays activity.