Eric M. Buckman

There should definately be a way to pick more than one...because...for me all the scores are a bit OVER inflated...and none came close to perfect...or as close as a few others that aren't even mentioned...yes these shows were great...but i just don't get the adjudication and achievement of those scores...ahhh back to the tick system!

Same could be said for 88 right? At any rate...maybe spartacus deserved the following that they got similar to say 95 Madison...but right now it just seems that shows are tailored to win based on dci judgess sheets and nothing more and to fullfill the demands of achievement opposed to excelling on all levels, DEVS are good and do excel...but if they are so so so boring then how do they get the GE scores they are getting, maybe we should force the GE judges to sit with the fans ,incognito...maybe we should just go back to the "Tick System" and if so what would it change...or would it?

That's AWESOME...LOL

two numbers 88

Closed Forum...Now that makes me FOMALOL...gosh you guys crack me up!

Not freaking out, but, merely speaking out...I greatfully respect Jeff and all of the Cavies staff that have come into SCV. I just don't need to see Cavies Light...Cavies west or whatever you wanna call it, I want to see SCV and I think everyone believes no matter who drives the vehicle...it should still remain the Vehicle(SCV)...as I mentioned earlier...everything they are doing in Santa Clara could be done as SCV...this show performed as SCV would get much more attention...I just don't see...as far as Ballet for Martha...again...I always struggle with a Corps repeating something that has a Gold Standard...if you repeat something it had darn sure be alot better than what was previously done...and there is just no question in my mind that 87 Garfield...to this day...would and still does blow 09 SCV out of the water...or at least I'd rather watch and hear 87 than 09...I'm a Cadet and I struggle with '10 Procession of the nobles verse the arrangment that SCV did in 80(and sorry it was Dance of the Tumblers I love so much more from 87)...again it had better either be completely different take on the arrangment or much better...only recently have I been able to see that '10 Cadets can hold it's own against 87 SCV...I just prefer SCV version...there is a deep dark richness to that arrangment that is just perfect...which cracks me up with the limitations of the day...another example would be each time the Cadets have rebirthed Bernstein WSS or Mass etc...to me it has always been better or different enough to stand on its own. As soon as I hear -09 SCV i start thinking of 87 Garfield and that detracts from the 09 version.

Ok so my understanding...and please someone from SCV help me out here...but the stories that I've heard go something like this...Gail did believe that 87 was the best show ever and was somwhat a repeat of 86... I digress, but then 88 was the best show on the field and he felt very much they should have placed higher than Madison...I've heard that he had said...we are going to repeat this show and "get it right"...oddly enough the 88 show was much better IMHO and many others...but 89 did win. I have posted a video that "eludes" to some of this...but again...this is only what I've heard from friends at SCV. the video is "A History of Excellence part III" This video clears up quite a bit

unfortunately...not this season...I don't...and as much as Ballet for Martha was OK for me last season it still was a departure within their IDENTITY...I see/hear and feel more of Cavaliers in SCV than SCV. Obviously with a coed membership LOL. It reminds me of professional sports...you really used to be able to identify with a TEAM before free agency...no matter what...the players were your neighbors they worked in the off season in the steel mills(you think its not true it actually is) Pittsburgh Steelers are the same organization and the same IDENTITY they have been from day one...which is the reason why they are the Rolls Royce in the NFL...Players have become interchangeable with free agency...the only thing that remains is the LOGO and the Location...but with the steelers you still have a real Identity in the type of player the bring in and the type of style of play they play. I get that the uniform or the MUSIC isn't the identity of a TEAM...but it's the INTANGIBLES that make up the identity,how they play, the style they march the ATTITUDE they represent and present. Something I 'm currently lost on with SCV. I think most people may be frustrated with DEVS this year due to the show concept, yet it is clean and played very well...but they still are DEVS...they play a jazz style very well, with a relaxed, confident, in your face feel...from the hornline, John Meehan is the MAN... and the drumline...well just forget it...they know they are THE BEST and when tested they will rise to the occassion and play their ARSES off...more notes, cleanliness with a reckless abandon bigger and badder than anyone else...I could go on about phantom and cadets..etc.

Or maybe...this is just a thought...as has been complained about...with Drum Corps...they all relatively seem the same...which has been a real indication not only this season...but the last few...please don't get me wrong...we all want Corps to continue to evolve...I think when you look at Devs, Cadets, Phantom have established an identity, their show concepts may have changed...but their identity remains...for example...close your eyes and listen, just listen to the corps...you will know their sound, their style, their arrangements and you can immediately identify with that Corps,(Jim mason hasn't recreated Star with Madison...he has rebirthed MADISON)...that isn't the case with many corps beyond...this is the point i think people miss when they say...oh you old timers can't have the past...it is the future...well pretty soon the future looks to be quite possibly...Vanilla, which is somewhat where I am with SCV this year...difficult show, it is growing on me...but when I close my eyes I don't hear SCV. I applaud Jim Mason for what he is doing...the three year plan is in effect...Madison will be back in the hunt again.

If that were all that needed to be...then Madison would not have struggled nearly as much as they have...there is more to it than this...and you also have to realize that if a Corps struggles it can be an even bigger detriment to their recruiting process...the Corps still has to connect with the audience and the membership...if it doesn't then you could hemorrhage membership... Also, and I am not saying this will or has happened...but in the unlikely event people start to view SCV as let's say Cavaliers part deux(which happened to Crossmen at a very crucial time in their history with their relationship with the Cadets)...you have an even bigger problem...which IMHO, does seem to be a small part of SCV's problem this season...their real identity...where is the SCV that we truly know...this show could have still been done with the spirit/tradition that we have come to expect from SCV...although the show has grown on me...I still feel like I just am not watching Santa Clara Vanguard. I am a HUGE SCV fan...and 83-87 SCV were a huge reason why I finally got involved...but if I were a Rookie able to choose a Corps to march next year based on knowing SCV's history tradition, but having seen this seasons show...I am not sure i would take the plunge...but to be honest...I doubt I would run up to Concord this season either, even if they win it all...I guess what I am saying is we all join the Corps we choose to based on ,ability, access and more importantaly a connection...and, as it has been beaten to death on DCP the connection with todays fans is a very precarious one in which there is a disconnect with many Alumni of some Corps...Devs, SCV, Cadets...on and on we support our individual Corps but there just seems to be an underlying grumbling this season about direction within the activity and within individual Corps...the only two corps that I hear ALUMNI overly excited about their season top to bottom in the Elite Top 6(funny how it used to be Top 12) has been Crown and Bluecoats.

To the original post...well said and Bravo! And as far as 1995 Madison Goes...there may never be another performance like that one...Wow...and that' is what DCI has let die...sad! I can only remember that it seemed like the crowd never sat down...they may not have been the best Corps technically...but between 95 and 88 amazing...raw passion...balls to the wall Drum Corps those were what shows were about...and that's what DCI should be today!

You asked...and you'll get it...refer to DCI 1988 ad nauseum...LOL...Madison oustanding...entertaining...suspensefull, and stole the show, maybe it was the best on the field that year...but definately not the cleanest show of the top 3...

Yes...they are actively recruiting as many old members to come back and make it SOUND LIKE, MARCH LIKE and PLAY LIKE VANGUARD should!

I thought so...when I saw that there seemed to be relatively NO one from previous years in the line, you don't age out an entire battery; basses, tenors and snares...impossible, but even worse they just aren't technically as savy as usual...hence the youthfullness...this could be a long term problem...you have to pull out every stop to compete with Scott and Dev's, you had better do it ...wow, a rule that would proclude quality members from marching...and quite possibly allowing them to travel up north...interesting...you have taken one of the strongest suits of the corps and THE quintessential battery that had a Corner on the market for "the Lot" and basically destroyed it, not to mention...right now SCV just seems to be Cavies sprinkled with a dash(maybe only a sprinkle) of SCV.

Does anyone have any idea what is going on with the SCV Battery(Drumline)??? I am speachless. Just curious...I know a few members moved on to Devs...but they seem to be increadibly green...and are struggling more than what is expected or should be expected of them...considering the talent they have I'm at a loss. They should RELOAD every year.

As a side note...WATCH what happens this year when Star of Indiana takes the field...and I bet you...I just bet you if the Corps in it's entirety were still around today...LOOKOUT...cause they mean business(and no I don't consider Crown to Truly be Star)...Star of Indiana and or Star United...no they aren't professionals paid musicians I have heard people declare..and yes they did have mostly music majors as I remember...yes they are very talented and yes...they choose music that moves you...arrangements that you will remember and adore and they play their friggin arses off...mark my word...you are going to see why...to me what was is definately different and what's lacking in DCI today...and that will be without major drill moves.

Yes...SCV can catch Cadets...if George decides not to go to Finals...

Actually not...you actually have supported my point...and the 2010 Madison group struggles due to YOUTH of the membership and nothing more...since you seem to be unaware of the staff that they currently have and that these are some quientiessential figures in DCI...or do you not know the names Mason, PRIME or Van Doren...anyway...my point isnt the individual musicianship...regarding SOLO and ENSEMBLE...the vehicle that drives this engine happens to be the actual Corps on field performance, not S/E last time i checked...and for that the individual membership has little say in anything to do with the drill design, music or artistic design(you show up they give you the music, drill and horn)...Solo and Ensemble is merely a side show attraction...and a great aspect of DCI something I enjoyed extremely having seen the original onset of S/E and I will put any member of Devs SCV Madison and any of the musicians from any Corps from that era up against anyone today and I think they would do just as well on an individual level...and yes I love Madison 2010 but they are no Madison 83...again...you have validatd my point...the quality of musicianship to increase membership hasn't changed based on the changes made and implemented by DCI...there is just a different vehicle to use...if these changes were to influence the numbers of membership so much then we should have more corps and membership...in all actuality we now have less...but that is due to many different factors beyond mere membership...

WRONG...you want exactly the same thing that we have ALL wanted through generations of drum corps...the problem is that you don't realize what exactly is being changed again by those who are at the top and currently in control of the organizations. Get real, the kids don't have say on electornics, valves, bugles etc, who are you kidding...this is the reason why...the activity is hemmoraghing alumni fans and fans in general...OUR generation got what we wanted from Corps...in your face, emotional, muscial performances with pagentry...what is offered today is DCI Marching Band. I can sing most every Corps tune from 80's thru late 90's if given half a chance...today not only do I not really care about what ends up on the field...it doesn't seem to resonate...hell right now most of us only want to hear Space Cords...Canon or Phillip Bliss and a few of our favorite drumlines warming up in the lot and we can call it a day...now that's sad...not to mention that even some of those Corps are struggling to maintain their identity and quality of sections...ahem I could name one in particular this season. Supposedly one of the major points of moving away from Bugles and into Three Valved Trumpets was to increase the ability of the performer...really well I'll take any of the sounds, arrangements, orchestrations and musicianship of the 70's-80's and 90's over what is being offered in this generation and we played on one and two valve G bugles for the most part...I can handle the change from bugles for cost purposes...but don't feed me a line of BSH_t about musicianship...otherwise go listen to Madison 83 as an example Strawberry Soup and you will get my drift.

Ok so VK did things differrently as well as Bridgmen...but at least they played within the rules for the most part while snubbing their noses at everyone else...and shouldnt it be Tubamom nowadays...anyway...no one is knocking the Carolina Crown Staff or members...if this is what they want to do then so be it...it is interesting that this is the way they want to represent the Drum Corps ACTIVITY, no one said don't have fun and it is well apparent that Carolina Crown is having some fun...(and if you have ever seen the BLUE DEVILS perform a parade, or encore THEY HAVE FUN, but they are dignified and classy, whether they are wearing their sunglasses gazillion rings, talking, joking during their performances) its laid back and loose, it never CHEAPENS the product. ...we are at a fraction of the Corps we used to have and the viability of sustaining DCI is at an all time low...the grim reaper is around the corner...and if this is the future of Drum Corps the I say put a fork in it for me...LOL...there is a reason the kids march Drum Corps and there is a reason they march High School and College Bands...they each have their own place...the problem is Drum Corps has become Marching Band...and for a large population of us THAT ACTUALLY PARTICIPATED...THAT SUCKS! so again i say...let's break out the PBR and salute the latest outrage... One last question...had this been a televised event say an evening with the Boston Pops for the 4th of July or the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade or a Presidents Election Parade...would Carolina Crown have treated it the same way top to bottom???? I really DON'T think so, and why would they have chosen to represent themselves differently for this event...I guess we will never know, now will we...as far as 4 parades in two days...quit whining...we all did it...and it wasnt necessarily fun...but know this...I'd rather march a Drum Corps with a bit of discipline flash an pizazz and takes things seriously than one that was just there for the party...

Yo Brent my sentiments Exactly, drum corps has died it is now official...so for all of you guys...I think this is much more fun and appropriate...and this is the example drum corps should now take... I Love my game day football season...but once again...Drum Corps AIN'T, NEVER WAS and never ever ever ever should be marching band. Crown just went Pabst Blue Ribbon on us for parades...Drum Corps is now Nascar...to that I crack open a budweiser and salute you... As far as them winning the Wakefield thing...duh, they could have picked their noses probably won as long as they played the way they did...and recruiting fans...ummm I guess it all depends on what kind of fans you are looking for...that's actually what they should have done...T Shirts...Shorts like the guard and passed out PBR to the members...now that would have been entertaining.

First,I marched 'coats in 88 then on to Cadets in 89...(so I'm NOT knockin COATS)with that said...same old tune...I LOVE THIS show from BCoats this year...it is OLD Drum Corps with a bit of this Body Movement not overly done...but no chance...won't finish...sorry...too much in front of it, if you havent heard DEVS CADETS or CROWN...I was just chatting with a Star Alum...same old thing they aren't doing anything new and forward thinking they are a Corps that REACTS to the times and that's about it...but man is their horn book is HOT and fan friendly!...they have managed to come out of the gate smoking...but CAN they Finish...likely Top 6 corps...but I'm betting they will be behind. CROWN, DEVS, CADETS and PHANTOM by end of season, SCV and Cavies are questionable... at this point.

First I marched 88 and I LOVED Madison Show...but...that's what is just soooooo interesting...you can watch it...you can listen to it and you could have seen it live and it was AMAZING...but for some reason...you can't get over the fact they were hot...IMAGINE what they might have scored IF...there was no TEAR in the opener and there were NO glaring drill breaks and guard problems in the midde and end of the show(moreso than any of the other Top 4 Corps)...and if you don't think so...WATCH the videos, either one, High or Multi cam they are there and NO ONE can deny that...and they still won...hats of too them...the Ring will remain green LOL.

Is anyone else nearly as depressed about the trend towards...POP culture music in encore presentations...this I can truly say...I LOATHE, it is basically PEP Band!!!!...give me your best stuff...not friggin MADONNA...this seriously bugs the livin daily outta me! There is no football team on the field to cheer on so leave that crap with high school and college marching bands.

Wow...pretty amazing responses...one last thought...as far as understating the changes that went on before 80-95...I didnt mean to minimize those changes...my point was that they were minor tremors that lead up to the earthquake...in alot of ways...I too agree that Suncoast Sound pushed the limits...but I doubt that show would place as high technically 5-10-15 years later...anyway...as far as 1-2-3 valve bugles pit, drums colorguard ad nauseum...those changes made the most since a nautral progression of what music was...C'mon to say the pit shouldnt be there is ascinine..if it's there in broadway or an orchestra that's a natural progression... to me...but some things have gone IMHO too far left...woodwinds...body movement etc...I am not nockin it...just saying it's just not my taste anymore...as a member of 89 Cadets we had body movement in Les Mis...but it was there to tell apart of the story...now it just seems to be there all the time...I love SCV body movement in the 80's...now...not so much...the Cavies when they did the show "the machine"...I mean seriously...that was AWESOME(now their musical attacks and body stability(just kidding)...but it's kind of like "scatter" drill...Loved it and it used to be there for a reason...to make a statement...now its just there because we can do it...that drill was meant to convey chaos into resolution...ie 85 Cadets...87 and 89 in On my Own...now you can't go thru a drill without seeing it come out of nowhere with no real meaning for the show...anyway... I REALLY enjoy all you r thoughts and views.