jbjb85

The fact of the matter--and the thing most people can't come to terms with--is that all men (or women) are NOT created equal. Decide what you want to be. Pay the price, and be what you want to be.

Funny, I thought the Cavaliers usually start playing with their swords WAY before retreat. Isn't that part of their initiation ritual?

And another thing...if the answer is so painfully obvious, as you stated, then why do we see the exact opposite trend in our current drum corps climate? Wait, maybe question is too silly for you too. Disregard it.

Are you trying to tell me that most of the threads on here AREN'T? I think it's silly to waste your silly energy calling a thread silly when you think it's silly. So there.

Obviously, no one is being forced to choose. I was just curious as to what some people's thoughts might be. Since cymbals have been called obsolete, and adding electronics has been called too progressive, I'm wondering which one people would rather see involved in a drum corps. No right or wrong answer, really. I don't post a lot, but if you have read any of my past posts you can see pretty easily that I'm an advocate for keeping cymbals around. If given the choice, I'd rather hear a real cymbal line playing than a synthesized version of the same part. And yes, I do think that will probably happen. And also, "cynthesizers" isn't an option.

####in' rookie. I'm kidding, I promise.

Also, we would then be in a system where things like narration, electronics, amplification, dropping on purpose, sprinting around the field (not marching), and other antics that, well, just aren't drum corps, would NOT get rewarded. Sorry, I went there, and I know that comment is going to completely derail this thread. But it's true.

I think this is one of the more intriguing ideas I've seen on this website. Not only do I think it would be possible, but I think it's a great concept. Whoever said that creativity does not happen in gymnastics was wrong. There are very different and very clear styles present in routines. Yes, the "skills" are all pretty textbook, but well, aren't the basics of drum corps pretty textbook too? Afterall, what do you think the staff says when they go into judging critiques? They compare their show's difficulty to other shows on the field that night. It would be very simple to assign higher start values for bigger tosses, difficult licks on both drums and horn, as well as blind drill moves and large step sizes. Then you could start talking bonus points for other elements. If anything, I think this could lead to even more creativity as people attempt to get higher start values out of the gate. I think this idea has some real merit. If nothing else, it would squash some of the irritating discussions on DCP as to "who should have won". When you think about it, this is similar to the effect caption. For example, bigger tosses tend to have more "effect" in the Visual Effect caption, correct? So in theory, it should get a higher score. What would be different then about going ahead and assigning the higher score with the start value, and then giving the execution score as it is (or is not) performed? Screw it...I'm writing a letter to Dan Acheson. Okay probably not.

And also, if I ever heard a member cuss while IN UNIFORM, you better believe there would be repercussions. But otherwise, I'm not about to waste my time and energy. If I was going to do that, I might as well always correct their grammar too. It just isn't possible, or necessary.

I know this thread has been "closed", but I feel like there is one other point that has not been made yet. This point, in my opinion, is one of the most important points of drum corps. Yes, drum corps brings out the best talent in music and marching. But that is not all that a corps considers. When offering contracts, staff members are looking for mature, young adults. We're not interested in kids. As someone who has taught drum corps, I will say that I never once viewed it as my responsibility to be a chaperone. I was there to teach, period. Now, if I saw something happen that I knew shouldn't be happening, the you better believe that I would step in and correct the problem. But I used to do the exact same thing even as a marching member. That's probably the most important lesson that this activity teaches: personal accountability. There are no babysitters, and there shouldn't need to be. The rules are laid out, and if a kid doesn't have the common sense to simply do as he or she is told, then this activity just is not for them. And I can guarantee that kid will not be returning to a corps if they were constantly breaking the rules, because that bleeds right onto the practice field where they more likely than not were always "in their spot", or "playing perfectly in time". Some kids were never taught to listen. They might learn how by doing drum corps, but some won't learn even there. That's why everyone keeps saying that if you have already taught your child what they need to know, then they'll be fine. I'll go one step further and say that if you have, in fact, taught your child correct moral values, then a drum corps would be lucky to have him or her as a member. Those kids are going to end up as the horn, drum, or guard captain. Those are the leaders. They are the ones who hold other members accountable when they forget their dot book, are late to rehearsal, or whatever. That isn't the job of the staff. The staff is there to teach. The life lessons that come from drum corps are a byproduct of that teaching. By telling a kid that they have to clean their horn, eat, shower, pack, and clean a housing site in an hour and a half you are teaching that kid time-management skills. By letting a kid get sunburned, you are teaching them that they are responsible for their own health. By cussing them out for making a mistake, you are teaching them that you will accept nothing but the best from them, and they should accept nothing less either. When you serve something to eat that they might not like because of eating preferences, you are teaching them that they sometimes must make do with the tools they have in front of them. And as far as "what happens in drum corps stays in drum corps", well, most people don't understand or care anyway. Just like in a family of one bathroom and six kids, and outsider would think it's strange that one could potentially be walked in on while showering. Some think it's weird to hose off outside (with a bathing suit, of course). Seriously, it isn't that weird or offensive. What is offensive is the smell of someone who has been rehearsing all day and when the showers at the school (which were supposed to be incredible) end up being turned off, they end up opting to simply not shower. That is poor hygiene, and no one should be above using a hose if that is all that's available.

Man, this one really blows me away. I guess the first thing that comes to mind for me is, "Are Bluecoats going to slip next year?" One could argue that they've already begun to slip in recent years, but their drum scores have at least kept them up there a little bit. Naturally, more resignations are on the horizon. Probably in the next week or two. So far I'd say it's too soon to be able to speculate very accurately as to how each individual corps and the activity as a whole will be impacted. But, I'll speculate anyway. I'd say that with their staffs staying intact (so far) it's going to be a Blue or a Green victory (snore). Or else Crown will make a run and we'll actually see some new (and much-appreciated) blood in the number one spot. I think either way, we are going to see some serious shifts of power in the activity next year as far as who makes the Saturday show and who doesn't, as well as where some of the recent power-corps land with these staff changes. Thanks for the great shows, Mac. You'll be missed by many.

I would have to say that one thing you have going for you is your attitude. If you truly do want it as bad as you say you do, then that is going to be your best ally. But, you also have to be prepared for the idea that it might not happen for you. Consider how many people make a corps every year, get to all days, and then can't survive. Those people wanted it really bad too. They made everything happen to get there, and then once there they listened to their body as it said to them, "Stop what you're doing. This is not a good idea." I guess what I'm trying to say is never hope or assume it won't be THAT bad, because it probably will. I'm certainly not trying to crap on your dream, but I have seen firsthand how heartbreaking it is for someone to make it and then be forced to go home. It is awful for them and everyone else. Just make sure you really are as prepared as you possibly can be. The unfortunate thing about drum corps is that you can have every other aspect going for you but one, and that single aspect will take you out every time.

Well, "better" is definately a strong word. Different for sure, but I'm not sure anyone could say better. In fact, it could be argued by some that when you are actually IN the activity, you have a smaller sense of things. I mean, you are spending your entire summer with one organization, whereas he is observing all of it. Just to put that in perspective, it's coming from someone who marched three years, had it "figured out", and then spent the summer after my ageout realizing I knew far less than I thought. It's been my experience that the ones who say they have it figured out are ironically the ones who have it least figured out of all. Go figure.

You're right, a lot of these things CAN be said about almost any corps. But the key words there are "a lot". I have been trying to think of another drum corps that you can literally say ALL of those things about. Don't get me wrong, I am sure that Crown has their own internal affairs that they are constantly working to make better. Every corps does. But I'm pretty sure I could take every other drum corps and point out an obvious problem they had this summer whereas Crown did not. Even the most common problem, money, doesn't seem to be an issue for them. So far the only negative thing I've really heard anyone say is, "Well, I personally didn't care for their show this year." Notice it wasn't anyone saying that they had a weak section, just saying that they personally didn't care for the design. And well, it's pretty much impossible to please every single audience member. I'd say they were pretty successful since they won over the overwhelming majority. So, if you can think of another drum corps with the positive reputation that Crown has, then feel free to post it. Until then, I'll keep drinking the kool-aid. :)

Because they have this activity figured out, in my opinion. They provide their members with the best possible education and summer experience. They practice good sportsmanship. They put out entertaining shows, consistently. They get the best possible equipment, uniforms, trucks, busses, etc. They don't seem to spend on frivolous (you can interpret that word how you will) items for the corps. They seem to focus on every single aspect of the drum corps, rather than just having an outstanding visual package, musical package, colorguard, or what have you. That says to me that everyone is focused on educating, and it also says to me that education DOES yield results. From the drum major to the front ensemble to the third trumpets, I feel like those members walk away satisfied with what they accomplished and learned. They pay attention to the competition factor and work towards being successful in that arena, yet I don't think they probably define their season by their placement. They aren't afraid to try something that is new and hasn't been done before. They work to raise funds, and they do a good job with it by sponsoring two drum corps shows, a fall band show, they sell great souvenirs, and they have an ongoing fuel fund, just to name a few. They are friendly and willing to help other organizations like themselves. They seem to place emphasis on public appearance and perception, without making it a stifling and strict environment. All in all, I don't think there is much you can REALLY find wrong with Carolina Crown. They are like the America's Sweetheart of DCI. Since finals there have been many shortcomings of other corps pointed out. Specifically--the actions at retreat. And yet no one has anything to say about Crown. That doesn't just happen by accident. It is a result of how that corps is run. From the administrators on down. Good for them, and may others follow suit. Just my opinion, though.

I would also venture to say that this entire situation has now reached a larger audience with the announcement that they won't be fielding a winterguard this year. While that does happen fairly regularly (Pride of Cincinatti announced they wouldn't field a unit a few months ago) the circumstances surrounding this particular announcement are sure to cause lots of talking. I feel badly for those members who had made plans to march with Phantom this winter as well. Many people literally base their residence off of where they would like to march for a season. Meaning that it isn't out of the question for someone to have moved to the Atlanta area in order to march this winter. And now this bomb gets dropped just a few weeks before auditions are beginning. Whereas this was a very appropriate time to make such a change as far as the drum corps goes, it probably couldn't have come at a worse time as far as the winterguard is concerned. Especially when Phantom has really been promoting their guard and its strong showing in World Class the past two seasons in Dayton. I think it is at least safe to say that this news is getting some very negative publicity for Phantom at a time when they could have been capitalizing one hundred percent on their win. As has been stated--seems like less than professional managing to me. And well, perception is reality, right?

That said, I pretty much agree with what you have to say. There are some pretty bad cymbal lines out there. And there are probably not as many teachers as there ideally could be. But I think we can chalk up the disappearance of cymbal lines more to misunderstanding than we can to poor quality. I'll say that again--a lack of understanding. But whose fault is that, really? Like you said, caption heads don't always take the time. But on the flipside of that, I'm not sure that cymbal enthusiasts always make the effort to reach out and MAKE SURE that the instrument is understood. I really feel like there are cymbal players who work under the impression that they are the ######## children--condemned to a career as the unloved section. They accept poor writing and inadequate supplies. They accept that role. And that is just not okay. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you act like an underappreciated section, then so you will be. When really, it is up to cymbal players themselves to be the best, work the hardest, and reach out to those who don't fully grasp what they're doing. I think this is lacking in the activity right now, and I think the only way cymbal lines will thrive is if it changes. In case you weren't paying attention, that is up to the cymbal players, and no one else. As for the recent reappearance (thank God) of Madison and Spirit, I think it is mostly nostalgia coupled with the recognition that they are no more or less necessary than the very activity of drum corps itself. I think that is an important realization, because to call any facet of drum corps unnecessary is to pretty much call into question just WHAT part of the activity IS necessary, when we get right down to it. Precisely none of it, that's how much. And yet we like it and do it and support it anyway. So with cymbals. And as for this whole silly question of who is the best and second-best and what have you, who honestly cares? In my opinion, comparing SCV and Academy and Colts and Crossmen and whoever else is about as worthwhile as comparing BOA to DCI. They are different. None of them wrong, just different. And while yes, you might enjoy one particular style more than another, that doesn't mean it is more valid or well-accepted or anything else. One thing we can all agree on is that most (I don't think all) drum corps that still have cymbal lines put out a good product and that more cymbal lines would be a good thing. And yes Vanguard is very popular with the masses. That's also a good thing, in my opinion. No matter how you dice it, they are a CYMBAL LINE that is getting hyped. Imagine the climate for cymbal lines right now if there weren't a Vanguard. Is it maddening? Sure. Because deep down we all know that every cymbal line works just as hard as Vanguard does, and gets just as good. We're all fully capable of executing a Vanguard "V" or doing the Viper, but it is considered theft when we do so. When Vanguard does it, they get cheers. Why? Were they the first ones to do these visuals? I very seriously doubt it, and unless it can be proven (I doubt it can) then I'll continue to doubt it. The one thing that really shakes me is when someone refutes the idea that Vanguard is the end all be all and then someone else jumps on the defensive. That's a problem. Because then it leads to the idea that Vanguard's style is the definitive style of playing. That concept is only going to hamper our future, because it places very strict restrictions on innovation. Vanguard's "West Coast" style itself is an innovative style. It's not coincidence that most groups use "East Coast"...that's what was widely accepted, and still continues to be widely accepted. Same thing with the Garfield Grip, it was an innovation when it came about. That doesn't make it any more or less valid than the pistol grip. It's like saying every single colorguard should wear gloves, or every snare line should play with a specified drumstick, or every hornline should play King brass. You cannot convince me that the players at Vanguard are BETTER at cymbals than someone who plays cymbals for another team. And yes, Robert Chavira has been teaching there for a very long time. That's great. That's exactly why they are as good as they are. Retention plays a huge role. But that doesn't make them better. And you can't sit there and tell me that his contribution to the activity is greater than say, Diaz Clark's, or Eddie Capps's, or our very own Steve Regener's. His contribution is DIFFERENT in that he builds one program. Whether you think it is better or worse to build one program or try to reach out and build several programs is completely up for debate. Diaz Clark taught at Suncoast, Magic, Southwind, Colts, and Bluecoats. By those measurements couldn't it be argued that he beats Chavira five to one? Not to mention he has taught Oddysey Percussion Theatre, Lassiter High School, and he currently teaches RhythmX and Kennesaw Mountain High School. I would really venture to say his contribution far outweighs the Jackal's. I would even venture to say that through his wide contact with various teaching and writing styles, he is better equipped to put together a cymbal line from the ground up. Just my thoughts. Take 'em or leave 'em as you so choose. And also, I love cymbals.

Exactly. You're a guy who used to teach. I like to actually read educated opinions on the validity of cymbal lines rather than reading, "I don't like cymbal lines. They're archaic. They just are, because my band doesn't have one." I think it's very worthwhile to read your opinion on the matter.

Come on now, no teasing. You have to follow through if you make a statement like that. I don't think I'm the only one on here who wants to hear what you have to say. And no, I'm not being sarcastic.

Hmmm, this topic is kind of a bugger for me. It's asking me (and everyone else) to do something which I think might be impossible, which is to invent a classification for this activity. It seems like no matter how hard we try, the more we discuss it the more we realize that the English vocabulary simply doesn't have the words adequate to describe what it is we want to say. As I was reading the different posts, I started to realize that what I was basically reading were the different things each person values about the activity. It's the same broken record. And it certainly varies. I also really started to notice that for the most part, everyone thinks a show should be designed for him or her. And I actually don't think that's very far off base. Or that it is wrong. When I'm watching a show, I want to enjoy it. When I used to march in shows, I wanted to enjoy them. Now, as a technician, I want to enjoy what I'm teaching the members. This activity is selfish, people, and there is nothing wrong with admitting it. I think that's what actually makes it great, because having self-centered people is undoubtedly going to lead to a wider variety of shows. It's when every corps starts trying to appease one specific group (be it the judges, the members, or the audience) that we'll start to see the "cookie-cutter" shows dominate. It's almost like religion in a way. And, like religion, I think it is important to make peace with the fact that no one has it ALL figured out. And the moment you think that you, individually, DO have it all figured out is when you become dangerous. To be so firm in your convictions that you become dismissive of the views of others is destructive, plain and simple. So just accept that there are different ideas--embrace the ones you like, but also acknowledge the ones you don't. They have just as much validity as your own ideas. It's that silly idea of nationalism. You know, the idea that your own country is supieror to others because, well, you were born in it. "Proud to be an American". Haha, how about, "Proud to be a Blue Devil". Apply that same thought to your own ideas and values. It's when people get past that notion that you start to see innovative thoughts come up and new, exciting ideas gain traction. As for the opening question, I think it's probably most important that shows be designed with the marching members in mind. While fans, judges, and staff can escape from a show design they might find unappealing, the members are literally required to live inside that design. I think probably nothing is worse than being trapped inside a show you hate, without the option to leave for fear of being hated by your corpmates. Good topic.

And for the record, I was a huge fan of the RCA Dome. Climate control? An NFL stadium being used for something other than the NFL? Forget about it. Easily one of my favorite shows. So it got boomy at times? I dealt with it, and so did thousands of other people.

I think it's great (not really) when we discuss (complain about) things which are absolutely, completely, and totally OUT OF OUR HANDS. Why not bring up rising tuition while we're at it? Or how unfair it is that Corps A or B didn't win last year? Or that show A or B didn't make the countdown? I think that was one of the best things I learned when I marched. There are very few things in my realm of control--music memorization, marching execution, etc. Things like placement or how crappy the weather got weren't in that realm. And neither are half the things on this forum. So why do we keep bringing them up? Oh, that's right...the instant gratification of "speaking our mind".

Hmmm, I don't think it creates a disadvantage. In fact, it creates an advantage. Since people could vote for the same corps (meaning all three of that corp's shows), then theoretically a corps with three really great shows would get the most votes. I think Phantom Regiment is the best example of that. The only really disadvantage lay with those corps who didn't have finalist shows all three years. Or, in other words, the only corps at a disadvantage were the Scouts (out of finals in '07) and the Colts ('05 and '06). If you added on some votes for those corps to compensate for the years they weren't in finals, then they are actually much higher on the "popularity scale".

Yeah...I'm not buying the rankings from ESPN. I don't doubt that boxing is a difficult sport, but I've always heard that gymnastics is the most difficult (doing pushups in a handstand position? yeah, I think they might have a point). I wonder if these rankings are based on all aspects that go into a sport, namely the training. Or is it just the actual athletic event (a boxing match, a basketball game, a track meet)? The one that surprised me most was rowing being at 39th place. Check out usrowing.org, where studies show that one rowing race is about the equivalent of playing two back-to-back basketball games (basketball was ranked fourth...). As far as dci being a difficult sport? Absolutely. However, I would never call it the MOST difficult. I marched a summer and then immediately went into training for rowing. Rowing was much more difficult. If you think a basics block sucks (which I agree, they do), try doing an hour on an ergometer (rowing machine) with no breaks, putting in sprints for ten strokes every five minutes. And the durability factor, which ESPN classifies as the ability to withstand physical punishment over a long period of time. Again, I've never boxed, but don't they get breaks? I think DCI would score pretty high in this category. And rowing should've scored higher too, in my opinion. It does NOT feel good to sprint across the water with your hands growing blisters by the second, and your back feeling like it is going to break. Yeah...I wouldn't put a lot of stock into that poll, honestly. And I definately wouldn't put a lot of stock into people's classification of a sport as legitimate only if you can play defense. By that standard, you're ruling out a whole lot of the Olympics. If anything, sports where you can't play defense are harder, because the only defense you have is imroving yourself. I'm sorry, but anyone can go out and run into somebody to trip them up. It takes a whole lot of self-discipline to simply BE BETTER than your opponent. It isn't luck, it's hard freakin' work.

I think the one thing that's being overlooked here in the worst way is...the kid. Don't forget that we are discussing events which are happening to a living, breathing, marching human being. And while the parents probably don't read these forums, you can bet good money that the kid probably does. Let's not make this whole situation worse for him (I can only imagine his embarrasment as it is) by doing what has already been done--speculating. Would any of you want to log onto DCP only to find out that there is an entire thread devoted to what might be going on in your personal life? Why you might have done something or not done something? Obviously he's been thrust into the publics eye, but that's no reason to further it in this medium. Just be tactful. And before you hit that "Add Reply" button, consider how "the kid" would feel if he read your post.