wolfgang

What do you want him to prove? His post only stated what he thought the Directors ought to do.

And even if he was, for the integrity of the brass/ensemble judging, would it not be wise to be proactive to prohibit such things?

One aspect alluded to in other threads is the volume settings of some speakers. Should DCI implement a maximum volume/decibel level for artificial amplification? We live in a society that loves the courtroom. If a plaintiff sued DCI for alleged hearing loss due to the volume of a sound system, whether they would win or not, the costs of defending such a suit would not be cheap. Its one thing to sit in the upper deck several hundred feet away. Its something else entirely to have the amplified volume level sitting in the first few rows of the lower deck. With the above in mind, should DCI set a maximum limit on decibels from artificial amplification? What would be a good organizational policy to ensure the best and safest experience for the paying customer?

Another poster made this allegation. In a larger sense it's irrelevant if it's been done (yet) or not. If the ability to do this exists (it does), and if this type of thing could or would give a distorted version of the actual playing, then imo it makes sense to get out in front of things and make it against the rules. I love creativity, but when something has the potential to influence a music score through artificial means, that seems to me to be contrary to the concept of good sportsmanship. As technology develops, I'd rather DCI be proactive rather than reactive.

One issue I hope gets addressed is brass or brass-like sounds either played or sampled at the same time the horn line is playing. In a judged activity, this gives the people evaluating the brass a false perspective of what they are supposed to be evaluating.

Lots of good discussion. Lets not forget one of my main points for this thread: Integrity. There are thoughtful counterarguments, especially Mike New's piano concerto reference. However, IN A JUDGED ACTIVITY, one thing that should be an absolute no-no is having any artificial brass (or brass-like) sound AT THE SAME TIME as the full ensemble plays. For a horrifying possibility, listen to the link below between the 4:25 - 5 minute mark. Imagine a lengthy, cool, fast drill which ends with a loud chord... with audio help. This is a perfect example from the world of professional theater that should be banned in a judged activity. http://www.marchingroundtable.com/2017/08/13/637-change-right-now/ Another related thing that is unethical (in a judged music activity) would be amplifying a few top players during what is presented as a full ensemble moment. If this was an exhibition or non-competitive activity, no problem. However, whenever judges are introduced to the mix, that adds the responsibility on the shoulders of DCI as an organization to ensure as much as humanly possible that the sounds being adjudicated are the actual live sounds produced by the performers. When Bluecoats did the pitch-bend in Tilt, I believe they put down the horns to make it obvious. I am concerned about the possibility of things that are not obvious.... and imo contrary to the spirit and sense of honor that should accompany a "level playing field."

Stream of conscious thoughts about amplification, electronics, vocal music, and judging from a tired mind at 1 am: At the heart of any competitive activity is the idea of a level playing field. If we look at two other subjective artistic sports, figure skating and gymnastics, the US and China will tend to have more resources, funds for better coaches, etc. than for example Bulgaria or The People's Republic of Bananarama. However, for the actual things the athletes are judged on, the balance beams, size of ice rink, etc.... those things are the same for everyone. Those are also visual things. It's hard to hide falling off the balance beam or missing a triple jump on the ice. Audio can be more tricky. In other threads, allegations of electronic augmentation of brass sounds have been made including - tuners strapped to the bells of horns, synths doubling brass, brass playing the root and fifth of a chord with a synth playing the third, only the best players being amped during full ensemble moments, etc. (Btw, if making these allegations, I would hope the accuser would actually name names of which groups he believes are doing this). "Thunderous goo" is sadly a term that needs no explanation since it's become so common. The thoughts below are for Music Analysis and Music GE judges in the press box. On the field, these shouldn't be an issue. 1) Regarding brass specifically-WHAT exactly is being judged from an ensemble standpoint? "That's easy, Wolfgang. The quality of brass playing is being judged." Ok. If some or all of the allegations above are true, than is the quality of the entire brass ensemble really being judged? IF any corps, whether Pioneer or Blue Devils or anyone else, is doing some of the things others have referenced (or perhaps other types of audio enhancements nobody is aware of), how can the true integrity of the judging system be maintained? In a Music Analysis role if the entire soundscape is open to evaluation- if A & E is utilized, should judges be required to receive training from professional sound engineers (at DCI's expense) in proper use and best practices of amplification and electronics? There are standards of brass pedagogy and percussion pedagogy (and singing.. . see next point). Is there such a thing as industry-standard "proper" uses for amplification and electronics? If so, whether a corps uses A & E (and to what extent), if we're trying to determine the best in the world, and if these things are used in the audio design of the programs, shouldn't the people deciding these captions be trained in best practices of the technology? 2). Speaking of singing, since this is part of the musical soundscape that a number of corps are utilizing, should DCI Music Analysis and Music GE judges also have training in proper vocal pedagogy and performance? If we're picking between the best apples and best oranges, and the differences are subtle and minute, why shouldn't vocal music be subjected to the same standard scrutiny? I'm not suggesting a separate judge or subcaption for vocals..... not everyone will use them and the thought of a Vocal Analysis judge at a drum corps competition is as absurd as the thought of Brandt Crocker announcing the Best A&E award after the 6th place corps is announced..... However, as I understand Music Analysis and Music GE, if a corps chooses to use this as part of their music package, and if these 2 captions are to evaluate the entire soundscape per their caption descriptions, then it only seems logical that the people judging this be required to have at least some formal training on proper techniques, vocal pedagogy, etc. so that those groups that choose to incorporate singing will have a trained evaluation of this aspect.... unless we're just going to say anything besides brass and percussion, while legal, will for practical purposes be ignored in the Music Analysis and Music GE captions. 3) Amplification - There are legitimate areas of disagreement among the DCI fandom. Beating the heck out of marimba to be heard over a 70 member hornline seems (to me) to be a good argument for amplification. Creating a jazz club or big band sound with a mic'ed and amped flugelhorn solo, I get it. The question is- is there a line, and what should it be? I don't have access to music tapes, but are all (or even a few) judges nailing corps for balance issues due to bad amplification or amplification failures. ... For example, if I see 12 - 16 tubas and only hear the bass synth, the musician in me feels that is a balance problem. If I see 12 - 16 tubas and a world class corps is playing a held fortissimo chord, then I expect to hear the tubas. 4) Integrity of the system- To me, this is where the rubber hits the road. IF corps are using some of the tricks outlined above, then it seems to me in a competitive activity where one effect (intentional or not) is to blur the line between the acoustic sounds made by the players, and recorded samples of the corps dubbed over a FFF chord, or mic'ing the top couple players on each part, etc, this gives the judge a distorted picture of what he/she is supposed to be evaluating. To take this to an absurd extreme- if a hornline puts the horns to the lips and doesn't play a note but a professionally mixed recording of them is pumped through speakers, while they would get killed on the field, what would the Music Analysis judge do if they are supposed to judge what they hear, and if what they hear is the corps on the field…. Just recorded at an earlier time, edited, and professionally mixed and pumped through the highest quality system a corps could afford? 5) Limits? - I don't believe it's realistic to put the cork back in the bottle, but that doesn't necessarily mean the audio portion of a show has to be a free-for-all. Here are things I would like to see made illegal with a large penalty for violations. Even if these things alleged are not yet being done, be proactive and encode them in the rules. *A ) Any type of tuning device will be illegal during the judged performance. (if a corps wants to use a tuner before the judged performance begins, ok. Once the corps is introduced, then no.) * B) No doubling of any brass part by an electronic instrument whether by a live player or sampled recording. (Electric instruments like electric guitars, electric violins, vibraphones, etc. are ok. This is specifically dealing with electronic keyboards doubling any brass part. This would allow the judges in the press box to make a better evaluation of the quality of brass playing they hear without any other brass mimic sounds to interfere with the sonority. The use of the vocoder was not doubling. The way it was used would still be a-ok). *C). No parts of a chord played by the brass shall be performed by an electronic instrument. (This needs to be better worded I admit. If the allegation of horn lines playing root/fifth and synth playing the third are correct, this would make that practice illegal. Note this is not technically doubling if the brass are not playing those notes in a chord, but if this is being done, it distorts the sound being judged in the press box by giving basically an aural illusion.) *D). <<<< unsure how to word this at 1am but what follows is a description of something that imo should be prohibited >>>> The practice of amplifying only a few of the top players in a tutti section seems to be the opposite of integrity. Stripping away rationalizations, at the end of the day it amounts to trying to fool the judges in the press box by giving an illusion of the entire horn line projecting a certain sound, when in reality it gives an Animal Farm-esque quality (all sounds from the hornline to the press box are equal…. But some are more equal than others). If this is done, it is like the DCI version of a pop singer's recording being autotuned. It's her voice, but not her "true" voice without artificial aids. My beef is if there are 20 trumpets, 20 baris, etc and all are playing what is obviously a tutti passage, and the top 4-6 players are getting amped a little bit above the rest of the horns, it would give a distorted version in the press box of what the actual brass sound is. This does not include obvious solo notes, as for example when Blue Devils play a FFF chord, and one lead trumpet goes up to double C to cap the chord. Also, this really isn’t what SCV did this year. Their 12 person ensemble was mic’ed but I could clearly hear when they were playing compared to the rest of the hornline. That’s one person’s thoughts at 1 am in the morning. There are different opinions, and that’s fine. Personally, I have no issue with amplification and electronics per se as long as they are within well-defined boundaries. If DCI was an exhibition-only organization, then have at it. Do whatever you want. However, since this is a competition, then I feel there should be some boundaries to maintain credibility and integrity with the adjudication, and it’s be up to the corps designers to be as creative as possible within those boundaries. It’s natural for someone with a corps to want to give their kids every competitive advantage….. but as technology progresses, shouldn’t the rules governing that technology also progress to allow the judges to compare apples to apples as much as humanly possible?

Just asking because I'm not sure how this works. Assuming the Stadium Authority (people that run the stadium) has a contract with the company that provides security, and if the ushers are not doing their job as (maybe) the terms of their contract with the Stadium Authority dictate... If the security company is not doing their contractual duty .. Is Lucas Oil possibly in violation of their agreement with DCI if the security is not being handled per agreement? Disclaimer- I do not know what agreements are in place or how DCI's agreement with the venue is worded. Just thinking out loud.

Funny you should mention this. One of my pet peeves is when I'm really focused on the music and I hear the bag open or the crunching of chips/popcorn, etc by the person chewing like a cow. However, unlike with people talking during a show, I would never say anything to someone about their loud chewing or opening a bag/candy wrapper during a soft ballad. Even though it is annoying, there are some things I'd feel too petty to mention.

Should this get its own new thread? First, the current thread is long. Second, next week will be the beginning of the 2018 season.

Subject to change. You know the indoor forecast. Here's the outdoor forecast as of 7am Monday. Per morning news: Thurs Hi 83, dry Fri Hi 84, 30% chance Sat Hi 84, 40% chance

The Tamale Place was featured on Guy Fieri's Diners, Drive-Thrus, and Dives.

As a resident of the Indy area, all these recommendations are good. There is a city-wide dining event called Devour Indy that doesn't start until the 21st, but here is the link which has additional dining options all over the city, with the majority downtown and north. While the meal deals are not in effect during DCI week, at least this will give additional options. Devour Indy restaurants

Since this is for corps staffs, I would tell them to please, please educate your staff on proper audience etiquette. There is almost nothing that will turn more people off to your corps than Rhonda Rifle and Gary Guard Instructor loudly shrieking at every catch, whether anything hit the ground or not. We know you work hard and are emotionally invested, and by all means show that appreciation BUT use common sense. You are amid people that paid hard earned $$ to be there. Respect the audience. They want to hear the music, not you shouting "you go, girl" every 15 seconds. Oh, and the golden rule applies. If you have something negative to say about another corps, save it for the staff bus. Don't be jerks.

Sooo.... Indianapolis has bids over the years that have made it financially advantageous to hold Championships at LOS. Where are all these bids from other cities with stadiums with everything needed to host the event? Either those bids don't exist, or they really aren't better that the deal already in place.

Also, depending on where The Company places, there could be 26 corps in Semis.

There are guaranteed to be at least 2. My guess is 4. Assuming either BDB or Vanguard Cadets are the highest placing Open corps in Semis, how high is the ceiling? With this year's World corps, could either crack the top 15?

Starting new thread as this isn't about the last 24 hrs. If YOU were the new Corps Director or new BOD member, what demands or suggestions would you make to keep the organization afloat? Legends are a test case, but any now-defunct struggling corps could be used. Obviously, an honest financial assessment is in order. Finding a way to get necessary funds AND the right people in place is top priority. One travel-related tidbit that has crossed my mind: To the best of my knowledge, Open Class corps are not required go on extensive tours. With regards to Legends specifically, there are local shows (Cavies Michigan City June show, several in Michigan and Ohio) a corps could compete at while otherwise staying close to home. Championships are also in their neck of the woods. A corps in another location may not be blessed with so many performing opportunities within a few hours. Back to original question: What would YOU personally demand be done if YOU were the new Director or BOD member? Maybe the collective wisdom of DCP can generate great discussion to avoid past mistakes of ghosts of DCI past.

Most likely Spirit's missing GE subcaption was a 6.something, which would put their true score as 66.something.

There is a famous steakhouse called St Elmos a few blocks away. I recommend it. They are known for their shrimp cocktail, but it is recommended you go easy with their cocktail sauce, at least at first.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/news/georgia-dome-still-around-mercedes-benz-stadium-isnt-ready-time-football-123058939.html Looks like the Georgia Dome isn't quite extinct yet. Moving DCI Southeast was probably beyond DCI's control, but this new place seems to have a few little bugs to work out.

After the original post pointing out the possible benefits of a show in what should be a new state-of-the-art facility in one of the fastest growing markets in the country, the discussion has degenerated into arguments about weather. Stu wants his questions answered… I will answer the questions, though I think they are based on flawed reasoning. #1) What do you realistically think will be the lease-rate charged to DCI to have the show located at the new Raiders Pro Stadium? -If the people that run the stadium want dates so it’s not sitting idle in July, they can negotiate a rate with DCI the same way Indy, San Antonio, Buffalo, Meadowlands, (hopefully) Atlanta, and others do that works for both parties. #2) Considering the ten corps you listed on the marque, how much net, not gross, but net profit do you think DCI will garner from ticket sales at a show being held at that Pro stadium? -You could ask the same question about any other large venue DCI uses. I would bet they have a chance to make more money than in Indy (no, not Finals.. I'm referring to the 5 or 6 corps June preview show at LOS that draws nowhere near as many spectators). #3) Someone in this thread stated that there are indoor facilities in the Vegas area large enough to handle 'full' rehearsals; can you please name the indoor facilities that are in the Vegas area which can provide indoor floor space large enough for those full rehearsals? -Since I never mentioned indoor rehearsal space, it is not a question I need to answer. I would be fine with the corps rehearsing outdoors, just the same way one or more do every year while passing through Vegas, and as numerous bands do. If the show ever does materialize and ouooga is able to help secure indoor rehearsal space, that’s a bonus but imho not a necessity. Somebody provided a pretty good list of facilities on another reply. #4) Corps have to pay hefty costs for rehearsal/housing sites like schools, and they are very hard to book. While BD can pretty much afford any rehearsal site they want, Gold and Battalion tour on peanuts and need way lower-cost facilities. Understanding that each corps needs a football field sized area with upper vantage points for staff, and that neither Gold nor Battalion can afford the same high-rate facilities as BD, what are the locations most likely to be rehearsal sites for each corps? (example: BD at blank; Gold at blank; etc...) - I reject the premise of the question to the extent it “requires” indoor, air conditioned rehearsal space. The most likely rehearsal locations are the same as for any show: whichever high school field they can get access to, whether in Vegas, St. George 2 hours away, or some other nearby town. Again, if there is an indoor venue, even if nothing more than a fieldhouse at a high school (if large enough), that’s great but imho not mandatory in the same way it’s not mandatory in Mesa, Houston, or anywhere else. Since you wanted me to answer your questions, I have a few of my own for you: 1. I rhetorically asked if the show in Mesa, AZ should be cancelled since it’s actually a little hotter on average there, and the question was sidestepped with “I am not saying a night show in Mesa is the problem.” Let’s try again: Should the DCI show in Mesa, AZ which is outdoors with outdoor rehearsals be cancelled since it seems to fall into your weather danger zone? Yes or no? Why or why not? 2. Do you have evidence that the show in Mesa, or any show in the inland empire in SoCal like Riverside where it can get hot with low humidity, has caused any more health problems than shows in more humid environments? If yes, could the evidence be furnished for us all to view? 3. Should DCI cancel shows or ban corps from rehearsing in other areas, including but not limited to Texas, Louisiana, etc. which have nearly equal and in some cases higher heat indexes with humidity factored in? 4. Since you are adamant that if a show is held in Las Vegas, the corps be provided with air conditioned rehearsal space, could you provide documentation (emails, copies of letters, etc) demanding DCI, the competing corps, or show sponsors provide indoor, air conditioned rehearsal space with adequate viewing height AT EXISTING SHOWS in areas of Texas and the Deep South with heat indexes equal, are in excess, or are close to the heat index of Las Vegas? 5. If you cannot, why are you raising an issue about a show that doesn’t exist (yet) when you could raise consciousness of DCI and the competing corps with EXISTING SHOWS about heat-related rehearsal issues? 6. What do you believe is the maximum outdoor temperature and/or maximum outdoor heat index a corps should rehearse in? How was that number arrived at? 7. What penalties or sanctions would you impose on groups who rehearse outdoors at temperatures or heat indexes that are beyond what you deem is reasonable? 8. You made a distinction several times between “humid” heat and “dry” heat, expressing concern about not being aware of the dangers of dry heat. Should corps be banned from rehearsing outdoors when the humidity is below a certain percentage when factored with temperature, and if so, what is that percentage and how did you arrive at that number? 9. What penalties or sanctions would you impose on groups who do rehearse at humidity levels that are below what you think is reasonable (with temperature factored in)? 10. According to Wikipedia, Clark County, Nevada had an estimated population of over 2 million in 2015. St. George, UT is one of the fastest growing areas of the US, with a metro area of over an estimated 150,000 in 2015 and is about 2 hours away. Should DCI ignore a growing area with well over 2 million people, or attempt to nurture a fanbase to expand their footprint? 11. As has been pointed out in this thread, numerous high school bands in the Las Vegas area (and I may add, Arizona) have band camp/outdoor rehearsals in July and August. It is reasonable to also assume The Academy rehearses outside in June and early July with triple digit temperatures. Could you provide documentation verifying these Las Vegas and Arizona bands have higher rates of heat related illness than bands from other parts of the country? 12. If there is no evidence that bands from Las Vegas and Arizona (aka high temperature/low humidity states) who rehearse outdoors in July and August have verified higher rate of heat related illness than bands from anywhere else in the country, would you agree that it is possible to rehearse in these environments with adequate precautions? 13. Will anyone beat the Blue Devils this year?

Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled thread. Using the current tour model, and a "passing through" show, the show is in the new Raiders venue in 2021 (using Indy and Atlanta as models, we'll say they were still putting finishing touches on it during early July 2020). Its on Wednesday. The following night Ogden, UT and DATR on Saturday. The northwest jaunt is also happening concurrently, and we'll say either BD or SCV is on that leg (lets say SCV) plus OC, Cascades, and the northwest Open groups. A midwest corps is also doing a pacific tour (picking name out of hat... It's Cavies). So, for a Wednesday night show, our lineup is Blue Devils, Cavaliers, Blue Knights, The Academy, Mandarins, and Pacific Crest, joined by BDB, Vanguard Cadets, Gold, and The Battallion. Most promoters on the country would love that as a midweek lineup. If the northwest leg was earlier and SCV, OC, and Cascades were added, so much the better for this example. Also, it behooves DCI to expand into new markets. Counting Vegas, Henderson, and other burbs, plus somewhere like Flagstaff or St George, how many people live within 2 to 3 hours of there?

Add this to the mix: Quick internet search (ave July temp, avg July humidity, avg July heat index) Las Vegas: 104, 19%, 102.3 Mesa, Az: 106, 30%, 113.6 Houston: 94, 55%, 106.3

Arrangements, whether pop, jazz, or symphonic, that take a couple bars of the original and are filled in with dissonant fluff, with the obbligatory 16th note park and blow technical passage. If it was good enough to put in your show, it's probably good enough to use a larger portion of it. Just play the tune, man.