Stu

Observation: Seven of the TOC G8 finished in the top eight voting positions in this poll. Just sayin...

> It's the judging community, not two administrators, who are responsible for the show designs of lower-placing corps. Nope, it is the Design Team of each corps that is responsible for the design of each individual corps. > ...and those directors enact what sort of control over the design teams of other corps, exactly? None; but Hop/Gibbs are both directly responsible for this G# fiasco pushing the cirque envelope. > And just to split hairs, I'd never in a million years compare BD shows to Cadets shows. Cadets shows are accessible to the point of being nauseating. A random individual can discern what they are about instantly, even if they dislike them. BD shows, not so much in since 2006. By the way, The Zone II is nearing its fifth anniversary - let it go. Got it! Cadets shows are understandable and accessible but not the Devils. So, in 2012 the Cadet show can be about a little boy getting testy because Alice threw all of his toy soldiers in the outhouse so he goes to his dad who sits him down to tell him a story about the good ole days when he actually believed in something but the rabbit ate his homework therefore he will decide to buy a radio and place it on a table right smack dab in the middle of the 50 yard-line; and the 2012 Devils show can be about vanity with mirrors while the announcer yells out dance moves to people sitting in chairs doing some rather absurd things to their instruments. (Meanwhile) all the other corps' shall receive a big binding promise from Mr. C. and the judges that they will not hold these poor less privileged units to the same standard as the high and mighty Cadets or Devils and they can even play some umm-pah Sousa music a-la '70s style, dump the electronics, go back to the G rotors, become the crowd the favorite, and have a real chance to win the 2012 WC title! Or am I missing something here?

I am not going to quibble over the nomenclature between esoteric or cheesy; the point is that both the Devils and the Cadets have been way “over the top” turning off many in the audience with their (tell me a story about a girl in an outhouse with mirrors and a large bunny rabbit while absurdly hallucinating on something) type shows. And it is the two directors of these corps’ that are the leaders in this G#/TOC extravaganza which is attempting to be more crowd friendly. Yeah, that is the ticket!

> Looks to me like they are making an attempt to do what many folks on here have been clamoring for: Have some way to reward/recognize shows for being more crowd-friendly. More Crowd Friendly; less Esoteric? .... For the past five or six years Gibbs/Hopkins have been the two biggest instigators in constructing shows that many fans have found too "way out there"; and they are now the two who are pushing this G (fill in the number) idea. Other than Michael C. being involved, how can we be sure that this TOC thing is now going to go in the "Capture the Crowd" direction?

I am pretty sure that Star of Indiana did this type of "walking man" drill back in the eighties.

According to the American Institute of Economic Research (AIER) using data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, if you paid $350 for dues in year 1984 it should cost you $733.69 in year 2010. However, not all things in drum corps are equal between then and now: Way more national travel in 2010, way more liability insurance premiums in 2010, way more paid professional salaries in 2010, way more food, and way more cost in quality instruments and guard props in 2010. But, those additions would only bump up the dues cost to around $1100 in 2010 terms. So this begs the question, why are dues today ranging from $2600 to over $3000? AIER calculator found at: http://www.aier.org/research/worksheets-and-tools/cost-of-living-calculator

Back in the day corps' kept their individual identities because of the loyalty of staff staying with one corps and not venturing off to interact with multiple corps'. So, could it be that the "cookie cutter" issue is not a product of judging, but more of the cross pollination created by design staff moving from corps to corps?

Of course they do not march anywhere else, but you cannot blame those kids for destroying the drum corps activity. They have already forked over hundreds of dollars in non-refundable audition fees and travel expenses to audition for the corps of their choice. Moreover, when it costs the same multi-thousands of dollars to march a tenth place (Open Class) corps as it does a top three (World Class) corps many of those who do not make it into a WC corps will decide to stay home.

> "adjusting touring schedules for the new G-8 corps and the newly NON-G-8 corps would be a logistical nightmare for those groups." Nawwwww..., there would not be a problem with this logistical stuff... DCI has already officially stated that the TOC eight will receive more contingency money to cover increased travel expenses; so DCI would just also cover the added logistical issues if the eight happened to change during the season. I mean DCI is all about the top eight anyway, right?!?!

> "...It is a fact that more kids dream of donning a Regiment helmet than, say, a Teal Sound shako. There is a deep sense of pride that comes with associating oneself with such success." Phantom Regiment: 1972 Placement 23rd Blue Devils: 1973 Placement 24th Carolina Crown: 1990 Placement 33rd The aforementioned corps’ have developed a Large following today through their growth in competitive success. And Teal Sound (2010 Placement 20th) can develop the same type of following if they have the same type of crawling up the ladder success. Just look at The Academy! If they keep progressing up that ladder, they will also develop a huge following who desire the pride of being a member of The Academy. In a manner of speaking, the chase for the ring is macro(corps) as well as micro(individual).

> "I think "ringchasing" has hurt drum corps." If winning is not important, then why keep score? Ring chasing, as you put it, has increased the quality of the highly competitive corps' who go after the ring; there is no valid argument against that aspect. However, if you mean that ring chasing has hurt the activity by driving out many of the non-winning corps' then to solve that problem DCI should just eliminate the competitive scoring and quit calling this a Major League. > "...if someone wants to join BD or Cavies, and they don't make it, a LOT of the time they don't MARCH AT ALL." That is because it is an individual choice, usually based on the same high cost to march the lower level corps (but I digress). The other alternatives to fill out "all" corps' memberships would be: 1) Strict Draft; 2) Strict Lottery System; 3) A single audition is designed for every corps and you are forced to go where placed; or 4) Only allowing completely altruistic youth to join drum corps. While these would equalize the playing field by increasing participation with lower level corps', it would also have the unintended consequence of lowering the performance quality standards of the corps' winning the gold.

Without getting tied up with semantics, failing to reach a primary goal and outright complete failure are two vastly different issues. The goal of the MLB Yankees, NASCAR Jimmy Johnson, or the DCI Blue Devils is to Win. If they take second, what they call the first loser, while they are devastated because they have failed to reach the goal of winning, they have not utterly and completely failed overall. Complete failure would be the destruction and folding of the organization. Check out the strike-out record (not the home-run record but the strike-out record) for Babe Ruth and you will see that he personally had the philosophy that I am saying occurs with winners. I will guarantee you that nobody on the 2010 Yankees was satisfied when they lost the ALC to the Texas Rangers, and I will also guarantee that nobody on the 2008 Devils was satisfied deep down when they got beat by Regiment. That disappointment at losing is what it takes to for an organization to win the most championships; and that is “not” sad as long as you have the same philosophy as the organization.

> "If the 'win or the season is a complete failure' mentality is actually what they have then that is sad." Why is that sad???? It is the reason that the Yankees have the most World Series Titles and the reason that BD has the most DCI Titles. Disappointment from "not" winning the gold is what motivates some to win quite often; and to me that is not sad but just a philosophical choice. Whether or not you realize this, your "sad" comment actually supports my trade-off categories. You personally fall into the second philosophy category that winning is "not" the most important thing and also marched with various corps' that also had that philosophy. Good for you!!! But also good for those who chose the Devils to Win but are devastated when they lose!!! The sad part develops when a person with one philosophy marches with a corps that has a different philosophy; nobody is satisfied in that situation.

> It is possible to want to win and also be ok with not winning. True, I am sure that those in Crown, Bluecoats, Boston, etc... want to win. But before you continue calling my opinion BS please watch the documentary put out by BD called 11-1/2 Minuets. (BD has won the most Gold). In that video you see BD members ingrained with The Drive to WIN philosophy, the "Eleven Baby" comment, the huge disappointment in the voice when the corps gets beat for the first time mid-season, another huge disappointment in the voice (and eyes) when the Finals silver is shown and not the gold. BD produced the video, approved of the contents, and therefore approves of the philosophy. Not saying it is wrong, just saying that it exists and it certainly is a main motivator to the corps winning all of those gold medals. FYI: Your statement, and I quote, "...a corps that only wants to have fun but you'll place badly..." is a gross misrepresentation of my posting. By the way, you said that you won (a lot). How many DCI <Championship> Gold Medals do you have?

It is a trade-off: Take the attitude that winning is the only goal, that second place is the first loser, and you will win many, many gold medals over the years. The trade-off is massive disappointment the years you do not win, even if you take the silver. Take the attitude that doing your best is the only goal, and you will be satisfied by reaching that goal no matter your placement. The trade-off is very few (if any) gold medals are won this way. Both attitudes are fine as long as you have the same personality and philosophy of the unit you are with.

Since you are the OP and have established the vibe of the thread: Post Y2k - 2010 Devils – Vanity with Mirrors! 2009 Devils – What risk? That was just plain Absurd. 2008 Cadets – Daddy, please tell me a bedtime story. 2006 Cadets - Kill Da Wabbit! And Table for 500! 2005 Cadets – Ok, how about the story of Alice in the Outhouse? 2005 Devils – Please yell at me through the PA system!

Infamous: “Having a reputation of the worst kind; producing a notoriously evil act”. Merriam-Webster Over the years I have seen a few shows that have tended to insult a number of people in the audience, but does any corps or show actually stand up to this dictionary definition of Infamous?

Is there some sort of check built into the contract system which prevents a member who still owes money to corps A from auditioning the next season with corps B?

Glad you all did your homework as well as sought permission from the publisher! Ethics and Integrity; That is the actual Good Stuff!

Somewhat true. If it is a small school doing local small shows many publishers will give the director a break. However, if it a major highly competitive band program that goes to BOA Grand Nationals, the publisher will usually charge a hefty fee.

> My guess is those HS bands are ... not bothering with getting approval ... Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding ...

Hate to tell you this but the composer Tan Dun, nor his agent, actually has the legal ability to give Permission to Arrange 'Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon'. The Publisher of his music actually owns the print Copyright to that music, which in this case is Sony ATV (via Hal Leonard), and therefore Hal Leonard is the only entity that has legal right to give permission to arrange that piece of music. Here are the details found through an easy search of ASCAP: CROUCHING TIGER HIDDEN DRAGON Publishers/Administrators: PARNASSUS PRODUCTIONS INC C/O SONY/ATV TUNES LLC Please contact our exclusive print agent, The Hal Leonard Company at http://www.halleonard.com.

My take on your situation: While I suggest that what ever corps you chose to audition for needs to provide a qualitative musical environment, the people you associate yourself with and the experiences which provide you with deep down enjoyment are far more important than being a finalist or winning the gold. Best wishes on your quest!

Some down here in the lower 48 feel that the increase of high school marching band was the demise of many drum corps'. Since Canada apparently does not have a thriving High School Music program, what was the downfall of the Canadian corps' in which you speak?

So if you wrote a very lush gorgeous orchestral composition you would gladly give an arranger permission to arrange a cheesy boom-smack disco "hooked-on" version of that composition?