westcoastblue

yeah, well, I just get tired of seeing corps make a legit comeback and then self implode due to dumb adult decisions. That is all. I have asked this a million times and cannot get an acceptable answer: where did that 2010-2013 staff go? why did they leave? why did the board let the most amazing thing the corps ever did since their fast rise in the early 80s just slip through their fingers? I guess it doesn't matter now.

I am confused. First, why are they rehearsing ensemble timing in the arc? Why does the rehearsal seem like such a downer? What comments are being made that will cause lasting change? Why would the staff ever have allowed this to be released publicly? And sorry, shofman88, no, no they aren't getting an amazing sound from the Kanstuls, no. As a previous poster stated, "sigh".

I know it may seem like a little thing, but I agree with your post here. It all matters. As the 2014 and 2015 corps entered the field, just the way they held themselves (didn't hold themselves), the show write--ups for both years, etc., I knew it was not headed in the right direction. Image on and off the field. Come on SOA.

I hope I wake up and realize I was only dreaming that Spirit announced they were doing a show called "Georgia", playing "Sweet Georgia Brown" and "Georgia on my Mind". I am sure that as a non-finalist trying to regain the amazing ground that they made in 2011-2013, they would not take the biggest risk that a corps in their position could ever take: do a show that forces everyone to compare you to your best you when being better than the best you is not possible right now, do a show that most everyone in the stands will write in their heads before seeing the corps, play tunes that you made famous (decades ago) and that you have already played to death (fresh versions or not), do a story line show, do a boy meets girls show that cannot dodge being compared to every other high school band show out there, do a show that requires play acting on the world's largest "theater" stage, etc.

While I can't say any of their winter season announcements have excited me or make me feel they will improve any this year, I am glad they are alive and kicking.

Well, if the new guy has a clue at all, he will reach out to that group that pulled off the 2011- 2013 miracles. Not necessarily to re-hire them, etc., but to nform himself as to the insights, strategies they employed to get the corps back into finals, and to stay there, to gain a fan base, to deal with dis-unified alumni, to keep their staff in place for three + years, to deal with an incomplete and weak board. Too much at stake to not be completely informed. Too much at stake to not cover all basis. Too much at stake to not be humble and open. Here's hoping this person in charge isn't simply looking of for a toy to play with, but one who gets that this is not a backyard, throw-together, merely keep-kids-off-the-street, mid-life crisis hobby.

While it is hard to really say "ever", my vote was yes with the criteria I put on it since following DCI closely since 1980, Most entertaining top 6 ever for me Most creative top 6 ever for me Most DIVERSE top 6 ever for me My favorite show may be the sixth place one

First, you do not have to support something (however you want to define that) to have an opinion, concerns, a viewpoint. While I have great respect for your defense of your son's corps, or any corps for that matter, please understand I am not attacking the members or pointing any fingers at them in regards to the past two seasons. Quite the opposite, I wish for them that the drum crops experience is everything it can be and that nothing stands in the way of that. While members can control their personal performance and attitude, most everything else is beyond their control. So who is to check in on the adults that are there to provide no obstacles to the members that are within their control? To say that everyone in all situations such as this fits neatly into one of two categories, "being part of the solution" or "being part of the problem", is simply not applicable and is one of those sayings that initially comes across as sound, but simply is usually an ineffective tool for moving toward resolution. While I have a say in who is president of the US, my contribution to the decision is small, and my trying to be part of the solution may not have any affect at all. As a matter of fact, despite good intentions, it may have the opposite affect. Regarding SOA, in what way am I positioned to support Spirit? Only in very small ways considering all things related to their success. I cannot call a meeting of their board to find out where their brains are currently. I cannot with good conscience give them tons of money not knowing in who's hands it will land. I cannot call Dan Acheson and ask for an official inquiry. I cannot write their show for them nor make their design team watch drum corps videos and teach them about effective programming. I cannot drive to Atlanta and make sure all details are taken care of so that the corps leaves everydays on time and does not miss their first show of the season. I cannot convince them that purchasing new Kanstul horns before having sold their existing brass is a bad idea. I cannot convince them nor some posters here that the new horns made no noticeable difference. I can go to shows and pay my ticket cost, which some small amount ends up in SOA's hands. I can and do clap for them regardless of my reactions to their performances. I can donate money to their summer food drive, with those funds going to people related to the organization that I trust. I can talk in public about the member's positive efforts (see all past related posts or sit by me at a show). So, to answer your question, I am much more a part of the solution than the problem. I created none of their issues. If you or any supporter is angered or frustrated by my viewpoint, perhaps you or someone who is more poised than I am will contact the board, attend a meeting, call Dan Acheson, put tons of money in the hands of someone there that you trust will do the right thing with it (hire a competent design team, feed the corps, take care of anything that stands in the way of members realizing the full expression of their talents). My financial contributions to the corps stopped after last season, not because I didn't like the show, it stopped because I no longer trusted those in charge to use it responsibly. I do pay member dues for SOA and other corps, to help members I know want to march where they want to march. Who am I to say I would support them only if they picked a corps I wanted them to march with this summer. More questions?

I agree that sometimes someone simply has to point out the problem, or at least facts so that some educated state of mind can make informed plans for change, if change is even desired. It really isn't a matter of being part of the solution or part of the problem. That ideal sounds right if it fits your current state, but is a flawed statement in most any circumstance. I get our loyalties and understandable bias, but some times someone just has to state the truth, as unappealing as it may be. So I will be that guy to some degree. This was their lowest placement since 1996. It has been 19 years since the corps was lower than 17th. And, I feel I must point out that drum corps is only getting better, so whatever changes that may have been effective ten or twenty years ago for improving placement, those tactics are probably no longer as effective. Additional considerations: The board kept much of the design team from 2014. This corps seemed more talented in 2015 than in 2014. They did not seem to clean nor change very noticeably since Minneapolis. The show was IMO the weakest offering in world class regarding coordination and programmatic through line, and probably should have fairly finished lower at least in GE, but their talent level was probably at least that of Academy and Troopers. The claims of amazing Kanstul brass sounds and a return to true SOA style completely alluded me each time I saw them live or on video. I felt that announcing that you are moving away from what was working to something more introspective and calling your show "Out of the Ashes" was a bold, audacious, misguided act that was a display sign of internal issues. So what now? We sometimes forget that they don't have to change a thing. It is not for me or anyone else to say what they should or should not do do short of treating the members well. I do hope the members shared smiles and accomplished performances, made new friendships that will last a life time and then some. I hope the honor of hard work and stick-to-it-ness gains each member life long tenacity and self-worth. There are a lot of kudos to be spread in those regards. Spirit does not have to be competitive, now nor ever. They do not have to do shows we get, enjoy, or want to see again. These groups are run by boards that can do as they like. While DCI is there to support and promote, the integrity and vision of the board ultimately determines what actions and directions the corps takes. I do not know of more than very few drum corps, much less an iconic one such as SOA, ever surviving being non-competitive, elusive, and myopic. Of course surviving can be defined differently by different people.

After seeing the webcast of San Antonio (my friends from San Antonio really dislike it when others use the term San Antone. Not sure why. They say it is an old Western movie-ism), it remains evident that the administration and susequently the designers they hired have below average skills for creating an effective show. I think it the weakest design of world class other than Jersey Surf. Though some changes did make a few moments better, they are changes that most likely result in no scoring increase. The members are of course working hard. That is true for all corps. I wonder if the 16th place was a bone, with DCI seeing where that pushes them. I know that 16th doesn't seem like a bone, but to me, PC, OC, and Mandarins clearly have much better show designs and are performing as well as Spirit. SOA may have more talent in some areas, with their strength to this point having been their brass. I felt they too are now behind the three corps I mentioned and given how much Cascades has cleaned, and how much harder their book is, I could see them passing SOA in brass over the next few weeks.

OK. Here's my take. Cadets: Ferocious BD: Understated Bloo: Visionary SCV: Revived Crown: Stalwart BK: Sublime Cavies: Almost PR: Stubborn Boston: Tenacious Blue Stars: Eccentric Crossmen: Ambigious Madison: Pandering Troop: Grand Academy: Delightful Colts: Confounding PC: Emerging OC: Paradox SOA: Fighting Mandarins: Gritty Cades: Interesting Jersey: Lite Pioneer: Better (really)

cool. clever. I will play tomorrow.

I was thinking .645 too high. But hey, that's just me.

I am sure you're a nice fellow from a fine family. Your posts make my head hurt.

Wow! Just watched a recent performance. Dat some ####. I wasn't expecting that much of a jump from last year. They are really good. Not so sure o fthe top 6 any more. Good for you. Might be my favorite show of the season. Did I just say that?

You're silly. Ummm, here is what I said, exactly: 7. Cavies- so much better, brass depth still not there yet and show theme never quite jells Your response...no understanding???....do you have comprehension skills...wait...can you read? Guess not! Cavies may be Top 7 hornline by the end! My posts did not say "No depth". If your definition of depth is how they currently sound, we certainly do have ears that hear differently from each other's. My definition of depth: Few to no weak players in each section. With rare exception, all players can max out their volume maturely withou distortion or altering pitch center. With rare exception, all players can play soft volumes maturely without changing tone or pitch center. The low brass are as strong as the high brass, if not more so. Articuluations or style have no affect on tone, rhythmic accuracy, or eveness of sound. Cavies, while amazingly improved over the past two years, do not yet fit the definition I gave. To be top five they have to beat some really good lines and be bested only by Cadets, BD, SCV, and Bluecoats. BK and Phantom sound pretty great. Madison, while playing a boring show, are pretty talented as well. Seeking truth one post at a time. Peace.

I am cool. Not offended. People, including me, sometimes get offended too easily. I really just try to keep it real. Being honest about reality and not what I hope or wish to be real. My definition of mature player here is my own drum corps definition, not one for graduate school or the real world of professional brass playing. In those cases, the definition would be more detailed and representative of much fewer players than what I indicated here. I do not think everyone at Spirit is a scrub, thus my second paragrah explaining what I was seeing as a mature player. My expanded point is that if your son is in, let's say the top 25% of brass talent there, what is the next 25% like? the next? the bottom 25%? It may not be a matter of those kids listening to the instruction and that guarenteeing that they get better. That assumes they are getting exactly the kind of instruction they need for where they are as players. A brass staff member at BD may not have the depth of knowledge that someone at Spirit does, because it may not be necessary. And, visa versa. I think there is probably 5 tiers of brass lines in DCI. It is not an ego assessment, or me trying to put any corps down at all: Tier 1: Few players make charcteristc brass sounds. The line includes more than a few ww players and new brass players. Tier 2: Each section has a few players that make good sounds. The line inlcudes ww players and new brass players Tier 3: Each section has about half of their players that are mature with few fundamental problems, including wws and maybe a new brass player or two. Tier 4: Each section has 75% or so that are mature players. WW transfers are good brass players, some weaker players exist Tier 5: Most all players are mature with little to no fundamental issues. WW transfers are good. No weak players. The top five or so lines have Tier 5 players. That is hard to beat, and, those cats are probably 19+ years old. The next five corps or so have Tier 4 players. Next seven or so have Tier 3 players. etc. There are always some individaul exceptions. There are also from time to time unfortunately talented lines that comes across as less than they really are due to bad show design, bad planning, bad instruction, bad organization, bad admin decisions, etc. Bottom line, talent and age goes a long way. All the more reason corps in that 10-17 or so range cannot putts around with bad show design, later starts, disorganized staff, etc. It is unfair to the kidos. They have much more to overcome than those with more talent. For the record, I have been/was a huge supporter of the corps for several years cause I was digging their #### and happy to see them making really smart choices. I have no doubt all members in all corps are deserving. Thus some of my sharp criticisms of the Spirit adminstration of late. I hope the members are having fun. I really do. I am not sure that is going to remain easy through the summer. I would love to be wrong about that. Its about the members' experiences first and foremost.

Not sure they are that much better unless in the hands of extremely mature performers, which I guess most of Spirit's brass players are not. So why the purchase? Why are the top corps not playing Kanstuls? There is a trade off between quality and initial cost as well as maintenance and repair costs. Did those with the purse strings do their research? For Spirit supporters that are offended by my statement about mature players, let me define such: All state high schoolers from states with a lot of top programs (Texas, Florida, Indiana, Ohio, etc.), players in the top of their college studios, players that could be in the top of their respective college studios but are not majoring in music. Players without notable embouchure issues, range issues, pitch matching issues, breath support issues, articulation issues, etc.

I like taking this mid-season prediction risk prior to knowing this weekend's results. 1. Cadets- just do marching and playing and spinning too #### well, the opitome of the traditional artform 2. Bluecoats- amazing, not sure everyone knows how to read or reward it, will be a historic milestone 3. BD- getting a bit tired of the formula (this was hard for me to type) 4. SCV- incredible, but simply bested by slighty more incredible groups 5. Crown- a crowd favorite, like SCV, bested by slighty more incredible groups 6. BK- major strides last few years, their own brand, wonderful show journey through time in a way no one lese compares 7. Cavies- so much better, brass depth still not there yet and show theme never quite jells 8. Phantom- too old school, but entertaining and different, not enough risk, plus too narrow of an audience 9. Blue Stars- pull it together with a stand out approach to design, drums smokin' 10. Boston- solve some banner destraction issues, not all, more mature design than Crossmen and Madison 11. Crossmen- get their feet better and show more design sophistication than Scouts 12. Madison- way too old school and boring for many, brass and percussion captions help keep them in 13. Troopers- so close, better GE and communication than Crossmen or Madison, not quite the talent to push in (yet) 14. Colts- visual design takes them here, narration again an issue for some GE judges, best 14th place corps ever 15. The Academy- too entertaining and fresh to put lower, show well constructed and logical 16. Pacific Crest- show well constructed and have a few wow moments better than corps 11-15. 17. OC- slow and steady all summer, with an intellignet package and smart writing, really close to 15th and 16th 18. Mandarins- Solid design and strong percussion, show makes sense and electronics smartly used 19. SOA- though more talented in brass than last year, design has more flaws than the 6 corps below them 20. SCV Cadets- think this show and the talent better than BDB even now, smart writing, clean 21. BDB- less depth than SCVC catches up to them eventually 22. Cascades- really smart show, would beat SOA if they had their talent 23. Genesis- the new kid on the block that may should finish higher, clean and accessible 24. Jersey Surf- accessible but not silly anniversary show, pretty even in all captions 25. ?

I think that by San Antonio, SOA will find themselves behind Colts and Pacific Crest. Those two shows just have such better design elements in them top to bottom. Though Spirit may fundamentally have a better brass line than both, the SOA desigers do not know how to use them. Colts and Crest beat them out with overall programmatic unity, visual design, and guard, hands down. Percussion in the same ballpark.

A thread about the Clifton, NJ show developed into a discussion about leaving room to squeeze corps in between groups that go on before corps yet to perform. I thought it interesting and deserving of its own thread. Below are the last three posts. Previous ones leading to the discussion are on the Clifton show thread. I agree with the bottom post here from phan771, and like many have said, judging is tough enough between good groups, it has got to be expecially tough when you are dealing with those corps that are neck and neck. I would not want to have to decide those situations. Other's input? Tobias, on 07 Jul 2015 - 09:24 AM, said: phan771, on 07 Jul 2015 - 09:21 AM, said: I see your point, but consider some scenarios: If you think BD is two or three tenths above Crown on both/either side of the sheet, you do have room for Cadets in between. No problems. But if you do that just to have room on both subcaptions (not a "true" rating), that is 4-5 tenths total, enough for one judge to call the show. And, remembering that though trying to avoid reading recaps or to have per-show bias, every judge going into this show knew it would be a tight race. Or, you right down exactly what you think the differece is between Crown and BD. You know that leaves little room for Cadets in there, but it does leave room and allows for a one tenth total spread if he felt that was appropriate: Was- Crown 81, 80 = 16.1 BD 82, 81 = 16.3 Cadets 83, 82 = 16.5 Could have fit Cadets in with: 81, 81 = 16.2 82, 80 = 16.2 80, 82 = 16.2 or other combination, though a subcaption spread given just for the total spread gives the wrong message and falsely represents the judge's exact take on what he heard. Write down true score for BD, being fair and true to where things were in relation to Crown. Place Cadets where they belong in ranking using appropriate rating as close as possible. Avoid false spreads. I get the argument about leaving room in both subcaptions, but think there is a lot to consider, and especially when the groups are this strong. This early in the season, I would want to know to the tenth exactly how a judge thinks I compare to my competitive peers, knowing that winning it all or coming in second is often decided by those same tenths. Edited by phan771, Today, 03:02 PM.

Funny.

Though I have been known for a few bitting posts within threads, I do not see the point of creating a thread that in its title alone we suggest the "down fall" of a corps, any corps. The thread title assumes they will fall. I don't think that cool.

This! Well said and I think dead on.

Are you refering to the tenth-thenth-tenth thing? Look at how often that happens, including that same night by other judges. I don't see the problem, especially if the groups are truly perfoming at the same level with the same level book. If that is the case the judge then has to look at the value of one tenth of a point and use that to avoid ties. You find that difference that you think does exist at that show and then write down what you feel you can honestly justfy. I think it really exciting that this early in the season we have judges having to use the value of a tenth to separate groups. It is saying that the next nigt, and in this particular case, any one of those three brass lines could beat the other. That makes drum corps more fun to follow and hopefully the entertainment value go up. It has to be tough. I would not want to have to make those close decisions.