irishbugle

Welcome to the great adjudication debate! Every judging system will have its flaws. The tic system had its flaws, this system has its flaws... the next system will have its flaws too. In the end, it all boils down to a judges opinion of the corps and the performance. I think every judge will tell you they try and judge as fairly as possible, but there is always a little devil in their ear when a corps comes onto the field that they just cant stand; and you will see that in their number for that corps that evening. Every DCA staff member today or from the last 7+ years knows they have ran into this situation once before. My ultimate question that I am posing to any current or past adjudicator- It seems like a trend is gaining traction in DCA over the last few years. There are a number of drum corps this year that have relatively easy brass and visual books.. Lots of 8 to 5's, very little demand, and a Level 2 brass book. Now, obviously that corps is going to be pretty clean due to the simplicity of their program. Than you have other corps that have Level 5 Brass books and a medium to high demand visual program. Due to the complexity of their program, there are not as clean. Why is the corps with the simple book scoring much higher than the corps with the harder book. Is being clean really the only criteria for having a high score? Why are judges rewarding a corps that can come out and do a figure 8 while playing Row, Row, Row your boat, but the corps that are really moving and playing a hard show are getting dumped? Believe me, I understand that on a basic level, clean is good, and if corps A is cleaner than corps B, than corps A will do better. But at a certain point, doesn't the judging community have to take into account the level of demand being put on the membership and what they are achieving with it? Being clean should only take you so far if your program is easy. I guess I just hate to see a corps rewarded for putting out an easy, simple, level 2 show when other corps have a much harder book and are not getting the scores they deserve. Even if the corps with the harder book is almost as clean as the corps with the simpler book.

I know it has been said on here before but I think it would be great for both circuits if these corps could be scored on DCI sheets at these DCA shows. I know that the appearances Surf and Raiders have made in Wildwood and at the Grand Prix have been exhibitions. As far as Surf and Raiders moving to DCA, I'm not sure how they would perceive a potential move to this circuit. Both corps pride themselves on being able to offer the junior corps experience of going on tour at a fraction of the cost of the top World Class corps. Remove the tour from the equation and you remove the majority of the experience they are looking to offer. With this G8 thing under consideration- I'm wondering if DCA would ever consider starting a junior class division (Ages 16-21) that would absorb most of the open class corps in DCI right now. They could offer a tour experience similar to what Raiders and Surf experience now (1 week camp, 2 week tour across the country) with shows in all the DCA regions. That's a huge investment for DCA though. On a side note- If that were to happen in the next two decades, I am all in favor of Hawthorne restarting the Muchachos in the new DCA Junior Class!!! Just imagine a DCA show with the Muchachos, Cadets 2, and Surf.

I love a challenging weekend!

No DCI corps compete in DCA. Jersey Surf and Raiders only perform exhibitions. They do not receive an evaluation from the judging panel at that show and they do not receive a score. Those two corps often perform exhibitions at DCA shows just before or just after they move into camp so their members can gain experience performing for a live crowd and have another run of their show under their belt. Thats as far as their participation currently goes in DCA.

You are correct. That was the one big variable. I know the last two years DCI has given free passes to age outs who attend finals. Would they do this for the members coming in to perform at this DCA contest? Maybe a reduced rate?? Plus- would the corps even have time for the members to go? Or would they be rehearsing. Guess that is really up to each corps to figure out.

Well, lets say- Hypothetically the Buccaneers were going to travel to Indianapolis for a DCA competition. From Reading to Indianapolis is 600 miles. I'm not sure of the fleet that Reading travels with but lets say 2 equipment trucks and 2 buses for the membership, plus a merchandise trailer. The buses aren't cheap but if every member were to kick in 40 bucks each round trip that should be enough to cover that expense completely. At 1200 miles round trip your looking at $1300 in fuel for both vehicles when you factor in today's diesel prices (avg $4.50/gal) Now again, not sure how Reading operates- lets say they provide 2 meals a day for their membership your looking at about $1200 for two days there. A rehearsal facility will be worked out and provided by DCA so thats not really an issue. I know a previous post mentioned "hotels" but I know quite a few corps can pull the gym floor/air bed routine when needed. So really, the only real expense is Fuel, Food, and possibly securing a housing site for the evening. If you look at what the corps likely spent on those items going to Lawrence, its not a far jump by any stretch. Also remember that by attending an event in Indianapolis that weekend means the corps wont be at another show. So you take the expenses you budgeted from the other show, subtract them from what I listed above and you have your increase in budget for the weekend. In the end, is that really an astronomical number??? Maybe? Maybe not. Depends on the corps. Remember, the corps will also receive some money from the show sponsor too so depending on how the corps balances their books, you could put that money towards the overall budget for the trip as well. Again- this is completely hypothetical and I have absolutely NO knowledge of the logistics of Reading, or any other drum corps. The point I am making here is its not that much of a stretch to make a trip like that. The biggest hurdle really is scheduling amongst the membership in any corps attending, and also scheduling of the show. If its a Saturday afternoon show before DCI Finals the corps would have to be out there Friday night, which means work conflicts. If the show were to be on Sunday, the corps could leave Saturday early morning (2AM ish) rehearse Saturday (maybe attend Finals that night), do the show on Sunday, and be home Monday morning (2AM ish) which means more work conflicts. I guess its really a matter of weighing the experience of the show vs the conflicts and slightly higher costs. If it were me, I would be happy to be tired Monday at work and be $80 ($40 for the bus and another $40 for the food) lighter in the wallet to have that kind of a weekend!

I believe the next step is going to be having more corps from the NE region traveling to shows outside their normal territory. How about a show in Virginia in August to get together the NE and South regions? Maybe a show in the Ohio-Indiana area mid season to bring together MBI and the Govies with the NE region without them having to travel 26 hours. It would be exciting to have 2 major shows mid way between regions throughout the year that can connect corps together that normally wouldn't see each other until Prelims I believe the fans in the NE region are starting to tap out also. There are more smaller shows with smaller crowds now than there used to be. Scranton still had open seats on the 50 this year! Toms River and Secaucus couldn't have had more than 300 people each, and half of those were traveling with the competing corps that night. How about the possibility of a DCA contest in Lucas Oil Stadium during DCI finals week? The crowds are already there, the venue is already established. The problem with that unfortunately is scheduling. Not only would that intrude into the work week for the DCA Corps but when would there be time at the Stadium for that show? Saturday afternoon maybe, or Sunday? And DCI and DCA could offer fans the option to purchase a combo ticket package for both circuits and focus on getting some butts in the seats for that show. I think that would be an awesome experience for the drum corps community as a whole if the logistics could be worked out.

We will have to agree to disagree on that one. Having attended both the Toms River show and Scranton I though both Bucs and Cabs gave much stronger performances in Scranton. Cabs specifically had a much better night than the previous show and were exponentially cleaner and had much more energy than the week prior- yet Bucs score went up and Cabs went DOWN. I don't subscribe to the ideal the scores must go up every weekend but in general, if you have a great rehearsal in between, really clean a few big moments, and go out that night and throw down a fantastic show, generally your score should go up. My thought is the panel in Scranton didn't do a good read on a those corps. Thus affecting their overall score for the night. Likely, the judges on Sunday had a better read and rewarded more points where applicable. Point being- the scores on Sunday better reflect the corps level of achievement than what was awarded Saturday. Erase Scranton from your records and look at the point increase from the weekend prior vs Sunday. That would be your true indication of the improvement those corps made between the weekends. I'm glad the panel for Sunday was able to judge based on what was in front of them instead of judging the corps themselves.

For those of us that are not for amplification, it's not a matter of "taking the blinders off" as you put it. Its about preserving the activity as it is and preserving the experience for future generations of DCA performers. Now, if we are talking about simply amplifying the front ensemble, I have no problem with that at all. I would vote yes to that today! But the second a single sound effect is added in, that's when it crosses the line for me. Digital sound effects have no place in drum corps. One of the essentials that makes this activity so great and makes us so passionate about it, is how hard we all have to work (from designers, all the way down to the members) to tell a story throughout a performance using the instrumentation we have. Sound effects take that away a little. Create those sound effects from an actual person on an actual instrument! Don't take the easy way and have some apple computer do it for you. Personally- I really hope this activity never gets to the sound effect point. That's when people my age (under 30) might find ourselves in an alumni corps already.

Could be. But a counterpoint to that would be, a Sunday performance is a great opportunity to go through your show and not make mistakes from the previous night. A staff can come away from Saturday night critique, fix or implement something significant on Sunday morning, and have a much better show Sunday afternoon. As an ex-marcher, I can honestly say I always had my head more in the game on Sunday, coming off of a drum corps day before, than Saturday, coming off of a week without drum corps. Backwards, I know... Also, its not written in stone that a corps has to have a big rehearsal before a show. I think we can all recount stories of great shows during unusual circumstances.

If a judge happens to be on both panels... My understanding is there are two different panels for these two shows show I wouldn't expect that to be the case here.

Scranton Aug 20 Buccaneers 92.50 Hurricanes 90.65 Caballeros 89.95 Fusion Core 82.45 Bushwackers 74.50 Secaucas, NJ Aug 21 Caballeros 90.85 Hurricanes 90.35 Fusion Core 83.05 Bushwackers 74.80 Windsor Regiment 71.5 Thats right.... I am predicting Cabs will take Hurcs on Sunday in Secaucas. I think Hawthorne has been gaining traction as of late and have been making big jumps every weekend. If they can go out on Sunday and really lay down a great performance, I think they have a decent chance at moving up a placement. I also see Fusion having a great Sunday also.

I would agree that the Top 5 open class placements are becoming transparent, but "locked" ... not so sure. As you stated- Perhaps Empire and Hurcs will flip; they were very close last weekend. Also, Cabs are making big improvements with big gains week to week (averaging almost 3.5 points every week). As of Saturday night, they are only 1.4 points behind Hurcs, which is their closest spread yet. Cabs and Hurcs see each other not once, but TWICE this coming weekend with shows together Saturday and Sunday. If Cabs can get their Guard and Percussion scores up (not saying they will beat Hurcs, but to no longer be far behind) I think they can take them. I wouldn't count any corps out from any position yet.

Thanks for the review!

Less than 2 points separating open class 3-5!!! Less than 4 points separating 1-5! This is when the season starts to get interesting.

I see this move by YEA becoming a template for other DCI organizations looking to keep their programs alive but operate within a better budget. With DCI Open Class on the decline, I'm wondering if some of those corps are starting to look at DCA for a more flexible, but still competitive arena. As far as Cadets2- I think it boils down to a small level of jealousy among the other corps (only a slight bit.) Programs like Fusion, Hurcs, Empire, and Cabs put a lot of effort every off season and in the winter months to bring new bodies into the corps and condition those new bodies for the summer. They also put a lot of effort into bringing in quality staff. Now here comes a YEA sponsored DCA corps with decent (not never ending) financial backing, an abundant world class staff list, and 400+ young adults foaming at the chance to be apart of Cadets 2012. Now I'm sure plenty will be turned off by the "Please march here for a year and than we will look to bring you into Cadets in 2013" speech, but also an equal number will likely accept the offer and spend their summer in Cadets2. As for the age restriction- I agree I would rather the corps be open to all ages so that Cadets2 is on the same level as the other corps. But at the same time- The Cadets, like most other World Class DCI corps, have a very strong Alumni. I can only image if those age restrictions weren't in place, the fight for membership in Cadets2. Maybe the age restriction will in fact keep things even? I'm on record for not being entirely supportive of this new effort by YEA. For me- its because I really do believe they will come out in 2012 with a very strong program and be a competitive force. I would have liked to see them start small and work their way up to being a powerhouse like most other DCA corps had to instead of coming out in year 1 and dominating. I think there is more evidence to support that this will happen more than it wont. Either way, anything that continues to support the circuit and help it flourish I welcome. If nothing else, the Top 5 will finally change in 2012.

This is true. Trust me, I fall into that clumsy category as well. What is was responding to was the notion that scoring an entire hornline based on an individual standard of excellence is better than how they work together and perform together. If any corps can win horns on any given night based on the success of their weakest individual, than why not cut all your weak individuals and go out with only the best if you want to win? I will end this by saying- This is the best emoticon I have seen yet.

Yes, there is a music ensemble judge in the box. Yes, the duties of the brass judge and music ensemble judge overlap. No, the music ensemble judge does not write down a score for brass. No, the music ensemble judge does not only judge brass (some will actually judge visual during a show ). Understand- the point I am making is specific to one sub caption. Yep, because an experienced, talented drill writer wont do their best to hide their weaker players in forms now, but move move the brass judge and boy will those flood gates open. So really- what I'm getting from this is a corps would be better cutting all their inexperienced players (potentially 40%+ of every corps line) and going out with only performers with 5+ years of experience if they want to win vs. taking on anyone who is willing to work and put forth the effort to learn a new instrument.

Agreed. I wouldn't go as far as to say the wrong corps will win it all. I don't think its a stretch to say the wrong corps MIGHT win horns, since that parallels what I am saying. I would agree that a good judge will pick up those deficiencies regardless of the location. I would disagree that, in your scenario, corps B should still take horns. You would be basing a caption score based on the quantity of "tick bombs" as you called it and how much they affect the rest of the line. Truly- the score should be based off the entire line and how well the line is performing the book, how well the line is meeting their responsibilities technically, and how well the line is working together; not individuals. The point I am trying to make, which I know others are trying to make as well, is that with the ONLY brass judge being on the field, its much harder to really get a true sample of the entire hornline. If Corps A has 48 horns and 10 of them are new to a brass instrument, therefor from a technical standpoint, they may be holding back a bit, or may may be struggling- and the judge spends 7 minutes standing in front of them (Which absolutely has happened, I have heard that tape with my own ears), how is that fair to the other 38 horns who are seasoned players, performing the book to a complete level. Consequently, that hornline scored pretty low that evening when they actually had a great show as a unit. Now, if that judge had been in the box for that performance, sure s/he would have picked up those players, but they still would have been able to sample the other end of the spectrum and give them an honest number. Maybe they would have placed higher, maybe not...who knows, but it COULD have made a difference that may have turned this corps season around. (This example was not from 2011) Point being- every caption, every 10th of a point, is important, and a lot can get missed when a whole caption like Horns is judged from only one vantage point.

Remember- Drum Corps is not just one circuit. I would agree that drill in DCI is slowing down, and we are seeing a lot more standing still for longer periods of time, but in DCA its the opposite. Over the last 10 years, drill is becoming faster and more aggressive. Maybe DCA is the new way to go?? As DCI is shrinking and moving in a path that some don't agree with, DCA is now drum corps that we used to enjoy in the 90's and early 00's. No amps- just good, hard working performers. Even Hopkins is moving towards DCA by starting Cadets2 (But that is a WHOLE different topic).

Agreed. I'm hoping there can be enough of an outcry to get this changed for next year. I know a lot of staff members among various corps agree with this also.

I would agree that kids today are gravitating to drum corps for reasons different than what they used too. But that passion of drum corps still remains. It's also a credit to marching bands for how much they have evolved to emulate drum corps, not so much that drum corps has came down to their level. I still believe young people are marching drum corps for all the right reasons. Just like you and I did. The product, is just different than what it used to be.

DCI, like DCA need to have a much broader mission than the shows. It's an entertainment company. They are responsible for governing the activity, marketing, adjuticating, and so much more. Most shows are corps sponsored. Example- the recent Meadowlands show in Nj was sponsored by YEA, not DCI. It was however, a DCI sanctioned event. Drum Corps and Marching Band are two different animals. The simulatity of Instruments moving on the field is only at the most basic of levels. I'm sure we don't have to have that discussion.

YES!!! That is exactly what I'm saying. Yes it's great to sample how well individuals are performing on a technical level. But if the sample is of two woodwind players in their first year on a Baritone instead of the 10 professional trumpet players 3 yard lines over, how does that justify the corps overall brass score. Point being- from 1 corps to the next, the field is not level. The judging is inconsistent.