IntheMood

Ok, now we have one poster saying there is no difference in the sheets and one poster saying there is a difference. Could someone post a copy of the OC and WC sheets so we can see the difference in scoring, if indeed there is a difference. Dean

According to Corpsrep from 1975 to the present there have been 28 different Champions in the Class A, A60, Div.II, and OC Div. I did not count Div.III winners. I do not understand why there will no longer be a top 12 in OC. Could you please explain this to me? Because I do want to understand. DCI.org has 22 OC Corps listed. Out of those 22 Corps only 16 made the trip to Michigan City. Unless there are more Corps who make the trip, I see no need for quarter finals. However I do see a need for a prelims and final show. I do not see many Corps ending their season at Michigan City because that show and Indy are not very far from each other. I see the MC show as a stepping stone to Indy. I had no idea that the OC and WC Div is indeed scored on the same sheets. If this is true, then all DCI has to do is tell the judges to stop lying to the young people in the OC Div and give the OC Corps a true and honest read no matter if they score 50 or lower. Yes indeed, THERE WILL BE A DROP IN SCORES. At least it will be an honest read. Dean

From my understanding, when an OC Corps compete at a WC Show they do get paid. When OC compete at an OC Show they do not get paid. Dean

Those that read the OC boards on a regular basics know that I have been a strong advocate for OC and WC Corps to be scored on the same sheets. So to me this is a great first step for our Activity as a whole. If done right, once again making the top 25 will mean something. At this point in time there are 23 WC Corps, which means, there are at least two spots min. that an OC Corps can claim. Using 2010 finals week scores my own first hand experience and history as a guide (15-20 point drop) only 2 OC Corps would of made the top 25. I used the high number (20 point drop) in my comparisons of scores. Here is my wish list that I would like to see now that DCI is willing to allow the OC and WC Corps go head to head on the same sheets once again. 1. Do away with the current OC sheets and replace them the WC sheets so the Corps can acclimate themselves to the WC sheets. 2. When an OC Corps preforms at a WC Show, score them on the same sheets, compete head to head. 3. Have a Show or two where all Corps from that state or region go head to head for a true state or region champion. If it is state show maybe the Show could be held at the VFW or AL state convention. The Corps in Cali. have a Show where most if not all Corps get together. All they have to do now is score all Corps on the same sheets to get a true state champ. By allowing the OC and WC Corps to go head to head will go a long way in removing the stigma of marching in an OC Corps. ( real or perceive) The young people who choose to march in an OC Corps are now on equal footing even though it is one show for now. Dean

It's a great first step in having the OC judged on the same sheets as WC. I love it that for the first time in 9 or so years the OC an WC will be going head to head. I just hope some of the OC Corps who are not plugged in stay that way. Dean

InTheMood, I'd agree that Joe Blow, who knows nothing about drum corps, might look at the Small Town Cadets and think "hey, they were ok..." But Joe Blow DOESN'T go to drum corps shows; the audience at drum corps shows is made up of people who already know something about the game, the same way that most people at baseball games KNOW who the Yankees and Red Sox are, and how the game is played. Hoping that the totally uninitiated will somehow show up and start supporting small corps isn't a viable game plan, imho. The path to growth will necessarily involve finding a way to make smaller, part-time corps as attractive to the existing fanbase as the best World Class corps. To my mind, that would involve making it different enough from WC to make it its own game. There was a time that Joe Blow went to the shows. The main reason IMHO Joe came, was most shows that I competed in were connected to a local community festival. We were a Week-end Corps. We did a show and then marched in the parade or vica-versa. Yes, for the most part the baseball fan knows how the game is played. I feel holding on to tradition and little change in how the game is played, is a major part of that. Everybody and their brother is using aluminum bats. Except MLB. When MLB introduced instant replay the fan base for the most part had no problem with this. However, IMHO if there was a big out cry in the fan base about the use of instant replay. They would of stopped it. I am a life long Cinn. Reds fan. The reds are considered a small market team. The Reds have been bottom feeders for years. Yet this year they are having a great year. And may even win their Div. Can a Corps today go from worst to first in one year? My answer is No. and that to me is a problem. There is little or no parity in today's activity. When one goes to a baseball game you never know who is going to win. Yet I can look at who is going to be at a show and know for the most part who is going to win going in. Dean

I agree, perception is reality. I can assure you that people who perceive the OC as being smaller, weaker sounding, less skilled= lesser quality, hence less worthy of supporting and less attractive to join are people within the activity. The general population has no idea when they see their first show that BD has won 14 rings, and Music City is an OC Corps. For example: If one takes a new person to a show and one takes that person to the lot first because the first couple of Corps are not that good, how would that person know that the first couple of Corps are not that good? It is the people who are involved in the activity who has created the stigma that the OC Corps could not be good because they are small and in OC. It is NOT the general public who has created this stigma. What is interesting, is that for the most part people like the underdog to win once in awhile. However, in this activity if that happened, which it did, Instead of this activity embracing that win, DCI created a rule to prevent that from happening again. Dean

In 1975 we had 118 members and we competed in the Class A DCI Finals, not Open Class/WC Finals. I think Music City had around 70 MM's this year. And they were very competitive. They had a good show this year. It would of been great if they would not have talked during the Show IMHO. I do not know for sure. But what I was told is that most of the Corps had less then 80 members in their Corps. So it looks to me that a Corps with 40-60 members can indeed be competitive in the OC Div. BDB is the exception not the rule. Dean

Mobrin, you have some good ideas. And some ideas not so good. BITD I marched with a Class A Corps that had over 100 members and our first show was always the last weekend of May. It is going to be very interesting this year in Indiana. There is very strong talk of starting the School year after Labor Day. You are correct, change must happen from the top down. Which means to me, Mr. Eddleman (sp) gets one more chance to do something that will have a positive impact on the OC Div. If he does not deliver this off season he must go. You are correct, the OC Div. must stop acting like WC Corps. They must set themselves apart from the WC Div. I just read on here that a staff member in the OC Div. receives 30k. You have got to be kidding me. They make this much money while their Corps gets no money for the most part when the preform. To me the OC Div. must at least try to bring back the Legacy Fans, by going unplugged (by the way there are Corps in OC who are already unplugged) and creating a scoring system that will bring back part of the tick system and marry it with the current scoring system. Will this work? Who knows. All I know that doing the same-old same-old is not working today. And what I suggested will cost little to no money. The Spartans proved this year that indeed you do not have to be plugged in to medal. They also proved that going on first is not always a bad thing. So mix up the order at every show. If most OC Corps are doing weekend only shows, then to me, there is no reason why they can not bring back retreat at every OC show. I agree that the OC Div. must reconnect somehow someway with their local VFW or AL post. If this happens it will be a win, win for the Corps, the Post and the local community. The founder of SDCA came on here and said that they are thinking about not only doing indoor shows but outdoor shows also. I feel this could work. Yet as far as I know he has yet to answer Stu's questions. Until Stu's questions are answered I will remain skeptical. If Stu's question have already been answered please show me where. As far as limiting the number of CMM's to me, this is an anti- growth idea. Dean

Why not have a Corps put out a list, maybe 3 songs or so, and let the fans vote for a song they would like that Corps to play. The Corps could charge $1.00 per vote. Dean

Mr Boo, I to am a Hoosier. So, when you said that the band shows are extremely numerous in Indiana, I had to do some research in this matter. My source materiel in my research came from ISSMA, Indiana Marching.com and Wikipedia. And by the way, I am an American Legion member. According to Wikipedia there are over 420 high schools in the state of Indiana. However, ISSMA has only ranked 375 high schools. So, 375 will be the number that I am working with. Out of 375 HS there are 240 that have some kind of competitive band program. And for most, it seems to me, a one and done deal. Here is the breakdown: ISSMA (this is the run for state)-152 Track show bands (this is the one time only show at the state fair grounds)-48 Festival bands ( I have no idea what this is)- 29 Mid state bands (again, I have no idea what this is )-20 BOA-9 88 of these bands have 100 or less marching members. While, 64 of these bands have 100 or more members in the band. Of course there is bleed over from bands who fit it some or all categories, that is why the numbers are off. What these numbers do not show, is how many of these bands programs funding has been 100% eliminated. Make no mistake, some of these programs are now supported by members fees and fundraisers only, if they want to compete. I do not know about the individual American Legion post in the state of Indiana in their recruiting efforts. What I can tell, is that the state of Indiana American Legion is doing whatever it takes to increase membership. That is fact. You are talking about shows. As you can see, I am talking about competing bands. Dean

MikeD, you claim that there are 4,000+ competitive MB's. Could you or anyone please show me the data that supports your numbers? I have looked and I can not find data to either prove or disprove your numbers. From first hand knowledge and commits that I have found, music programs are being eliminated at an alarming rate. Competitive HS bands and music programs are decreasing instead of growing at all levels. Dean http://www.schoolmusicmatters.com/resources/notalone.php

If one was to look back in time, one would of found out that the first Class A/OC finals held in 75 went down like this. Class A held their prelims wed. Finals were Thursday. For the OC/WC Div. they held their prelims Fri and Finals Sat. So, what some of your are suggesting has been done already. So one must ask, what was the reasoning for the switch to the current format? Dean

I could see flying judges in if the palcement of the Corps would effect their payout for that show. Yet we all know what Corps are going to make before they even cross the starting line. (sorry 70's flashback LOL) I would like someone please tell me why flying in judges to shows would create an ROI? Yes indeed, the Corps Dir's created this mess. It can be fixed with little or no money. Dean

I am so glad that current marching members are posting here. After all, what the G7 proposal states it would effect the young ones who are carrying on our history and legacy by choosing to march in our activity. I wish more CMM would post. I would love to hear what your point of views are. To me this Activity is an expansive hobby, to the young members marching today, what they are experiencing, will carry on for the rest of their lives. Dean PS Thank you all for choosing to march in our Activity

Thank you for allowing me to learn some of this process. I am so glad that DCI books the rooms and flights this is a good thing. If DCI receives some discount in booking rooms through their travel agency's, could not this cost savings be extended to the TEP? What is so wrong in giving the Corps a list of local judges. If the Corp Or Corps want a judge that has to be flown in they foot the bill, not DCI? Dean

If I read this right, you are saying, that the Corps Dirs. have mandated the DCI front office to fly judges around the country to address first see issues. You have got to be kidding me. If the Corps Dirs. are really serious about eliminating waste, this practice must end like yesterday. Does DCI book the flights and rooms? Do the judges receive per-diem? Dean

I agree 100 % with the above statement. I am a member of Teamster local 135 and a Lean export. I am not pro-salary nor am I pro-wage earners. I am pro long term sustainability. Yes, one of the first words that come out of peoples mouths "are you going to cut my job?" I am proud to say that we created jobs instead of eliminating jobs and still saved the Company a boat load of money. When we went into an area and proved that 6 people were doing the job of 3, those extra 3 were moved into other areas, with the blessing of the union. I would love to come up with a solution, however, One can not do that unless DCI allows a team to go in to study and ask questions about their process. One has to understand the process before solutions can be implemented. It's called the DAMIC process. One thing that caught my attention was the money spent on the judges. I would love to know what the process in assigning judges to certain shows. For example why would DCI fly in judges if local judges were available? You could save on housing and travel. I believe 100% in training. And DCI judges should be well trained. I read on here that DCI judges were like sub-contractors. If that is true, then if a judge wants to judge a major show then the judges must foot the bill to get that training not DCI. Again I say this without knowing the full judging process. Dean

Here is the link that talks about it more. http://www.drumcorpsplanet.com/forums/inde...howtopic=139882

Thank you for your perspective. We happen to agree with each other on many of your points. I would encourage anyone who has not read the OC thread called Open Class only shows please do. You will walk away with a better understanding of the relationship between the OC and DCI. Thanks to some very knowledgeable poster, we now know what those services are. And make no mistake about this fact: The G7 wanted to eliminate all the services, cold turkey. I see from your writing that you understand what would happen to the OC Div. if the G7 had their way. Utopian solution? No sir, valid solutions that address: Long term sustainability Increase in attendance OC Corps getting paid One step at a time. I understand there is no magic bullet out there. However, there is no reason not to be proactive on these issues. Start now, who's to say that the services DCI provides the OC Div. will not be eliminated one service at a time. Dean

Not to long ago I was a strong advocate of the OC splitting with DCI however, because of the services that DCI provides the OC, it would not be wise to split with DCI at this time. Which makes the G7 proposal even more egregious because the G7 know how valuable these services are to the OC Div. And they knew that eliminating said services would cripple the OC at the very minimum. I know some have said that the proposal is now dead. Yet that does not change the fact that Bluecoats, BD, SCV, Cadets, Cavies Crown, and PR have stated for all to read their true feelings towards the OC Div. I feel that DCA and the OC Div. would be a great fit. However, it is clear to me that is not going to happen at this point in time. To me, this option is off the table. I feel that SDCA and the OC Div. can work. If, and only if, DCI gives their blessing and they work together on the schedule. With a stretch goal of taking over the services DCI provides one step at a time. Not cold turkey. This would be a great opportunity for the OC to create their own brand, create their own identity, and create an executive BoD where most members are not Corps Dirs. A blank slate, if you would. What would be the issues if SCDA with DCI blessing ran the OC shows and regionals during the season? Dean

Did Brian(Glassmen) step down?

I do know for a fact that a lot of concession stands at Indy are worked by Vol. for non profits. When I was doing it we made 10-15% Dean

I ask because I do not know. What happens to the shoes that are left on the field at finals? Dean

Please re-read some of the G7 statements, you will find your answer there.