Stats on DCI Judges

[JayM]

That's just my opinion. They have a nice show this year, but I think their Faust effort was better.

[X DM]

You know, my husband, a total novice when it comes to Drum Corps asked me this: "What criteria does a judge use anyway?"..... it's gotta be that they like group B better than A etc" Whereas THAT got me thinking, what EXACTLY is the criteria - other than personal taste and perhaps percussion training and a trained ear, would they have any set guidlines for any type of scoring. (EX: percussion would be rudiments, fundamentals, stick grip, cohesion etc) but what EXACT measurements for brass, visual, music, GE do they have to follow aside from personal judgement ??

I'd like to know. Seems obvious that in the past 10 years -- there are only a handful of corps that the judges feel & score as having that "total pkg" such as the Cadets, Cavaliers, Blue Devils and Vanguard. They of course have THE MOST DCI titles in all of the corps/divisions. Is it the age range of the judges? Is it that they are alumni of XYZ corps? Is it something we're all unaware of?

Seems as though at the rate it is & has beem going -- Phantom Regiment will NEVER win a championship unless those other corps fold, just my HUBLE, BIASED opinion ! There have been many shows that Regiment has done, like 2005, 2006 &, poss the 2007 show when the final pkg is delivered that IF ANY of the "Big 4-5" were to perform, note for note, drill for drill etc -- they would win no matter what

Enlighten me as I am stupified at the current judging system....

Good questions all. It would be helpful if everybody, Corps, Directors, fans..... all knew ahead of time who are the judges chosen on Finals Night. Why the veil of secrecy anyway ? Put it the DCI Championship souvenir book. Include the Judges experience, training, professional occupation, degrees, hobbies even. What Corps did they march and teach?. What equipment Mfg. did they receive royalties from ? Are they Single ? or Married perhaps with kids of their own and did their kids march Drum Corps and if so,which ones ? Have they worked with any of the Corps staff members of the Corps they will be judging? When they are not judging Drum Corps, what musicians and/ or genre of music is their favorite and they like to listen too ? And so forth . Personalize these judges. It's not like the man behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz. There is nothing to hide here. So with so much riding on scores and placements, lets learn about these hard working and dedicated people DCI entrusts to judging these Corps. With this knowledge, we all may come to respect and like them even more.

Edited July 18, 2007 by X DM

[PRPhan4ever]

Ok -- hre is osme data & a good read with direct quotes etc from actual DCI Judges. It was printed in the spring 206 Edition of DCI Today, Page 14 & is titled: "Order in the Corps"

Here is one blaring example of what a person "thinks/feels/percieves" based on THEIR own interetations....

Dr. Joe Allison, Music Caption Judge

"As far as music judge, I look for (and listen) for achievement. It comes in many forms & since achievemeny takesinto considerationwhat the performersare doing, as well as how they do it, I can deal with concepts, rather than just listenming and cataloging errors. The qualities of a performers' training and skills -- as well as the qualities germane to the the evaluation."

Ok, so I guess that means --- if you can stand still and shatter someone's eardrums until they bleed with one blaring chord en mass -- and the judge feels that is what is being intended - then they score them as such? If a corps runs at 272 bts per min while playing a 2/7 suspension-- an the judge thinks/feels "WOW", that's neat - then they are scored well? Do you see what I mean? I won't elaborate any further -- read the article and hear THE SAME THING from 4 other judges in various areas (pit, percussion, guard) I'm off this rant -- but wanted to state a fact in someone else own words -- that is quite literally --- black & white!

[Blueemrld8]

At first glance, I agree with this. Then, I started thinking that a judge may be affraid to give a certain corps a higher score than usual when they perform way over their head for fear of being inconsistent. Statistically, this one score may stick out from all the others this judge gave this corps throughout the season. What are we going to say is "good" judging from a statistical standpoint? Is this judge doing a great job because he gave a higher score that "stuck out" on a particular night or a poor one for not being consistent?

How interesting! I was just talking about this last night with a friend. He won me over, not only saying the above, but also that if there was a set scale to judging, there would be nothing new. With a set scale, the corps might just play to the judges for the points. Trying anything new would be dangerous. Creativity would go out the window along with original pieces.

That being said... there should be some general guidelines.

(disclaimer: my opinion)

[Medeabrass]

How interesting! I was just talking about this last night with a friend. He won me over, not only saying the above, but also that if there was a set scale to judging, there would be nothing new. With a set scale, the corps might just play to the judges for the points. Trying anything new would be dangerous. Creativity would go out the window along with original pieces.

That being said... there should be some general guidelines.

(disclaimer: my opinion)

I agree. I'm sure there are some general guidelines. They just aren't sharing the details with us :)...I'll go ahead and repost the DCI's judging "primer" that I posted in another thread. It's a little too general for my taste in that it pretty much says there's ge, visual, and music captions without filling in the blanks of how they come to their conclusions regarding sub-captions. I guess that's why they call it a primer, but "primer" usually suggests there's more coming at a later date. :)

http://www.dci.org/news/view.cfm?news_id=d...ac-24b3dd384d25

A DCI judging primer

Thursday, July 8, 2004 - 2:01 PM

From the 2004 DCI program book:

Drum Corps fans often ask “Why did corps A not place higher than corps B?”

What might seem obvious on the surface may be masked by the complexity of our judging system, which takes into account the entire process of creativity of the program and the performers who bring the show to life.

Possible points

General Effect 40

Visual Effect 20

Music Effect 20

Visual -- 30

(each 20-point subcaption is divided by two)

Performance visual -- 20

Ensemble visual -- 20

Auxiliary -- 20

Music – 30

(each 20-point subcaption is divided by two)

Ensemble brass -- 20

Performance brass -- 20

Performance percussion 1 -- 20

Drum corps competition demands excellence from both the performers and the adjudicators. The DCI judging philosophy is that any group could win at any contest. The judges’ decisions are based on the performances they observe and not on a corps’ reputation or past performances. The group that creates and recreates the best program will always come out on top.

Our judges evaluate four separate music captions: Music effect, ensemble music, brass performance and percussion performance. There are also four separate visual captions: Visual effect, ensemble visual, visual performance and color guard. The following is a summary of the Drum Corps International judging system with examples of how it works.

Performance

The two music performance captions -- percussion performance and brass performance -- and the visual performance caption concentrate on the individual performer. The judge examines the students’ work at close range on the field.

In evaluating the music performance captions, a judge will concentrate on the quality of musicianship and the quality of technique (excellence). How well the individual musicians play will determine the overall score for each brass or percussion line.

Judges will “sample” individual musicians as they play and march through the program, listening for the musical aspects that are positive as well as the ones that need improvement. The judge further applies his/her knowledge to assist the corps in improving their work. Additionally, a judge must recognize “simultaneous responsibilities,” which means: “How well are the musicians playing their music within the spectrum of visual and musical demands?”

Visual performance is much the same as the music performance captions with further consideration being given to the control of the performer’s body while they play and manipulate their equipment. Additionally, a visual judge will examine the methodology of movement and basic alignment between performers in two sub-captions called accuracy and technique. The same recognition of achievement and encouragement for improvement is applied in the visual performance caption as in music.

Ensemble

Ensemble judges further examine music and visual elements in detail from a distance, usually in the press box of a stadium. They take a look at the big picture but still focus on either a musical or visual section of the corps. Within the ensemble music caption, a judge concentrates on the musicality of the group. Consideration is given to the tuning of the ensemble, balance between brass and percussion, tempo control and rhythmic accuracy.

Effective musicianship judging requires a deep understanding of the elements of music and how they interact, as well as a detailed analysis of the musical rendering offered by the corps. Style also becomes an issue when judging ensemble and the adjudicators must recognize the efforts of the corps regardless of their chosen genre of music. All performers must interpret the music in a similar fashion. Sometimes the judge may find that the brass or percussion work at cross-purposes in their interpretation. The judge will indicate this to the performers and offer suggestions for improvement.

Like the music ensemble judge, the visual ensemble judge addresses the big picture. He/she examines the whole form and looks for accuracy in alignment and balance within, across and between forms. One slight difference, although it is somewhat related to style in music, is that the visual ensemble judge is considering the compositional elements of program. Here, some may say, judges are rewarding the designers, however, they respond similarly in music. If no opportunity for expression and interpretation existed, or the music/visual was all in one mode of presentation without much variety/creativity, the results would be very basic and one-dimensional. The performers would not be able to communicate very well.

The ensemble visual judge also examines the musical interpretation through the visual design. Here again the judge is required to consider “simultaneous responsibilities.” Consideration is given to the performers’ body and equipment control while presenting the development of the form. Successful corps do not simply create big, well-balanced pictures. The truly successful corps are the ones who get to these pictures without the audience realizing how they did it. They move in and out of their design effortlessly and transition from form to form or to a new piece of equipment, flag or prop effortlessly.

The most successful corps make their music sound and visual design look effortless when it is actually quite difficult.

Color guard

The addition of the color guard sheet four years ago recognized a unique ensemble of performers who were previously overlooked in the former judging systems. These young men and women are the personality of many of the competing units. Their use of mime, interpretive dance and movement not to mention some pretty amazing coordination while spinning a flag, tossing a rifle or sabre can enhance the overall program. Color guard can also be the center of a very special moment in the design. Judges recognize the facility, training, excellence and precision of these performers. They must further evaluate the logic of the guard’s design and their musical interpretation.

Effect

The most global area of evaluation is known as effect. Music and visual presentations should create an effect unto themselves, triggering aesthetic responses to the intellectual and emotional design and performance. In essence, this is how we determine what is entertaining about a particular program. Effect captions are the most subjective to judge and yet there are established principles of design and performance practices which can determine what is effective.

Effect judges are looking at the actual design of the show, the peaks and valleys of excitement throughout, and how the performers make the show successful. Questions a judge might consider in judging effect are: Do all of the elements of visual and musical design reach an effective climax together? Are there a variety of effects in the show that display a wide array of human emotions? Does the pacing of the show vary, remain steady, or have lapses?

It is important to realize that it is not just the designers who control the effect but also the performers who bring the effects to life. The performers may be truly amazing musicians and superb marchers, yet they may have limited show material to work with. Eventually the effect wears thin. To be a good effect judge, one must have a depth of understanding of how shows are put together and how performers can not only interpret the design but also actually elevate its success.

Conclusion

In conclusion, fans should note that the Drum Corps International member corps creates the judging system. Each year instructors and the designers in the activity meet to present their views about how this system should be interpreted refined and/or revised. This is where the current philosophy of judging originates. The philosophy is then further developed and delivered as a curriculum to the judges who in turn put the system into practice during the competitive season.

While the DCI judge makes an individual determination of placement and score, he/she is doing so with a significant amount of knowledge about how the system works and with the support of various tools to help make an informed and informative judgment.

Judge administration team

John Phillips -- Judge administrator

Marie Czapinski -- Visual caption chair

Glen Fugett -- percussion caption chair

Andrew Poor -- Brass caption chair

Gary Markham -- Music education director

George Oliviero – Visual education director

Edited July 19, 2007 by Medeabrass

[Bob984]

I agree. I'm sure there are some general guidelines. They just aren't sharing the details with us :)...I'll go ahead and repost the DCI's judging "primer" that I posted in another thread. It's a little too general for my taste in that it pretty much says there's ge, visual, and music captions without filling in the blanks of how they come to their conclusions regarding sub-captions. I guess that's why they call it a primer, but "primer" usually suggests there's more coming at a later date. :)

http://www.dci.org/news/view.cfm?news_id=d...ac-24b3dd384d25

IMO, ironically, there are clues in the written "DCI judging primer" that suggest the problems that exist there. You will find the word "DESIGN" throughout the document. I don't have a problem using that word when describing the visual aspects. I have a HUGE problem with it, though, when discussing the musical product. MUSIC, the last time I checked, is COMPOSED and/or ARRANGED, not DESIGNED. (Although I think some are trying to "design" it, and that is why their MUSICAL show doesn't work....) The words composition or arrangement are nowhere to be found in the document. My fav comment is "there are established pronciples of design and performance practices which can determine what is effective"....the statement might as well say...."there are certain types of performances which we as judges can determine are effective"......EFFECTIVE TO WHOM ????? I would LOVE to sit down with the musical judges and have them tell me why Crown's show this year isn't musically effective and what is missing in the musical effectiveness of their program (lol) (as that is how they are being scored compared to others....)....with the word "performance practices" in their effect definition....whereas I agree that excellence in performance can create/improve effect....the greatest execution in the world will not save a bad arrangement.....yet come next month, 19's will be shelled out to some programs that have serious lulls, lack of continuity, lack of impact, lack of musical emotion/expression/phrasing, and some serious arrangement problems....yes, they will be executed well, but is THAT ALL THERE IS?????

Another fav comment of mine is when they give the general statement regarding the background of the judges. I asked DCI a few years ago to give a brief bio on individual judges at Regionals and the Championship......they cited that they felt it was a "privacy issue" and wouldn't do so, even though I've been to tons of music festivals where the backgrounds of the judges are read in detail and it's commonplace.........I know for a fact that the real reason is that some of the music judges do not have a real strong musical background/bio....in fact, I know that one music judge (who has done finals) did not even have a Bachelor's in Music yet, and had a very thin background....by the way, that judge is still doing major shows....I can also tell you that even though judges do "trials" where they judge shows, and then their tapes/sheets are reviewed....there is absolutely not a single "musical skills/perception" written/aural test given to a single judge. I was told that "they are above that" coming in.....bull.....anyone who has achieved a musical degree knows that "aurals" is a subject that with few exceptions seperates average musicians from strong ones....there are people out there who are a "C" at best, and all of the training in the world isn't going to fix that.....some are very good, and also have strong backgrounds......

There has been way too much "bleed over" of visual into music captions. Yes, movement demand (ie moving while playing, listening demands, etc.) should be considered....yes, good coordination should be considered....but if there are MUSICAL ARRANGEMENT problems, communication problems, lack of dynamic contrast/lack of musical impact....There is NOTHING that visual DESIGN is going to do to fix that....to me, that is where the "system" has BROKEN...........IMO, the Music Effect caption is so broken that they might as well call it a different name.............

GB

[vferrera]

It's not forced on the corps from some outside monolith named DCI.

No, it's forced on them by an outside behemoth called YEA!

(now that's a cheap shot!)

(buy you know it's true.)

[The Tsar]

IMO, ironically, there are clues in the written "DCI judging primer" that suggest the problems that exist there. You will find the word "DESIGN" throughout the document. I don't have a problem using that word when describing the visual aspects. I have a HUGE problem with it, though, when discussing the musical product. MUSIC, the last time I checked, is COMPOSED and/or ARRANGED, not DESIGNED. (Although I think some are trying to "design" it, and that is why their MUSICAL show doesn't work....) The words composition or arrangement are nowhere to be found in the document. My fav comment is "there are established pronciples of design and performance practices which can determine what is effective"....the statement might as well say...."there are certain types of performances which we as judges can determine are effective"......EFFECTIVE TO WHOM ????? I would LOVE to sit down with the musical judges and have them tell me why Crown's show this year isn't musically effective and what is missing in the musical effectiveness of their program (lol) (as that is how they are being scored compared to others....)....with the word "performance practices" in their effect definition....whereas I agree that excellence in performance can create/improve effect....the greatest execution in the world will not save a bad arrangement.....yet come next month, 19's will be shelled out to some programs that have serious lulls, lack of continuity, lack of impact, lack of musical emotion/expression/phrasing, and some serious arrangement problems....yes, they will be executed well, but is THAT ALL THERE IS?????

Another fav comment of mine is when they give the general statement regarding the background of the judges. I asked DCI a few years ago to give a brief bio on individual judges at Regionals and the Championship......they cited that they felt it was a "privacy issue" and wouldn't do so, even though I've been to tons of music festivals where the backgrounds of the judges are read in detail and it's commonplace.........I know for a fact that the real reason is that some of the music judges do not have a real strong musical background/bio....in fact, I know that one music judge (who has done finals) did not even have a Bachelor's in Music yet, and had a very thin background....by the way, that judge is still doing major shows....I can also tell you that even though judges do "trials" where they judge shows, and then their tapes/sheets are reviewed....there is absolutely not a single "musical skills/perception" written/aural test given to a single judge. I was told that "they are above that" coming in.....bull.....anyone who has achieved a musical degree knows that "aurals" is a subject that with few exceptions seperates average musicians from strong ones....there are people out there who are a "C" at best, and all of the training in the world isn't going to fix that.....some are very good, and also have strong backgrounds......

There has been way too much "bleed over" of visual into music captions. Yes, movement demand (ie moving while playing, listening demands, etc.) should be considered....yes, good coordination should be considered....but if there are MUSICAL ARRANGEMENT problems, communication problems, lack of dynamic contrast/lack of musical impact....There is NOTHING that visual DESIGN is going to do to fix that....to me, that is where the "system" has BROKEN...........IMO, the Music Effect caption is so broken that they might as well call it a different name.............

GB

Bravo.

(Seriously)

[sburstall]

I've seen the stats on each show broken down into science. I am wondering if anyone is keeping stats on the DCI judges. This could go to prove a point that certain judges rank corps higher than others year after year. Could also prove bias and slotting. Anyone?

Luke

I've started working on this part (how they ranked the corps). Of course I have a different plans for this information. ^0^

[Medeabrass]

No, it's forced on them by an outside behemoth called YEA!

(now that's a cheap shot!)

(buy you know it's true.)

lol :) in essence, they only have themselves to blame.