The DCI Champion is too predictable....

[DCIowaFan]

......but I definitely think the judging system in place needs to have some subjectivity taken out of the judges' hands. I have made a post in other threads about show reviews from a panel of judges. This may not be the best way to make the change, but there needs to be something that can be scored that is indisputable. Without that possibility the opinions, political sway, and personal preferences or taste will decide the outcome.

To me, the effect caption should be scratched because of it's current terminology and what it represents. Effect should be just that, an effect. Too often and in too many circumstances effect is measured drastically different by different people. Different things effect each of us in different doses. What one judge might view as very effective may not strike someone else as such. I fully believe that the judge's opinion should effect the score less.

AMEN!!!!!

May I just say that you have very eloquently put into words what I and others I know have been thinking this past season, particularly your comments about judging.

[coachsig]

There's not more I can say, and I don't believe in padding what I can say to make it appear more educated. Even if I do possess advanced thought, I will distill that so that I can make a point that is easily comprehended, if I can.

And please notice that I did not infer your hypothesis was all wet, as did some others.

I honestly believe there is a quality of consistency in certain instructional programs that transcends other programs that are catching up. We saw a lot of programs take a giant leap forwards this year, but it's hard for me to deny certain other programs have set the bar for keeping the level so high.

Personally, I don't buy into your hypothesis, but again, I didn't say it was all wet. My observation was simply about the quality of instruction one can find in specific corps that continually stay near the pinnacle.

I understand and repsect that you did not make my hypothesis all wet, I respect your reply to my topic. I am highly educated and was just making a mere analytical observation and assesment of what I observe in the history of the DCI activity. I also understand the quality of consistency in all programs. Yes, there are a vast majority of corps that posses a higher quality of standard than other corps. That is even so true in athletics today in al levels. However, the pendulum does swing sooner or later to those programs who do work hard for a consitant amount of years in succession. In turn, the programs are rewarded with their efforts of being given the opportunity to win a championship. I agree with your observation of many programs taking big steps forward not just in score or placement, but as an organization as a whole. My thought is, we have seen Carolina Crown, Bluecoats, Glassmen and I think Crossmen, sneak in to the top 5 or 6. Possesing the ability and instructional consistency, to knock on the door of the top 5. What does do you think it takes for well organized programs like the ones I have mentioned, to take that next step in claiming the championship, if they too are working very hard to win like the previous championship programs?

My topic was not intended to create an argument, just observing, assessing and using statisical data to prove a point.

coachsig

[coachsig]

I dont understand your problem with his response...it seems very clear to me he presented a professional, concise response to your argument that fundamentally undercuts your major premise.

Now what I do not see is any kind of response on your part. Please do not take this discussion behind closed doors...there is no reason to.

sure, but there is a huge difference between direct competitive activity, and an indirectly judged activity. Obviously the major difference is the objective score at the end - something which can never be achieved in drum corps.

Instead of comparing drum corps to professional sports, maybe we should look at some other judged activities. Out of all the countries in the world, only 13 have won the mens Ice skating championships. Only 9 have ever won the ice dancing competition. do we hear people calling for partiy in these events?

I do not think there is a difference between a direct competitive activity and an indirect judged activity. In competition, may it be drum corps or an athletic events, judges or referees are held to some repsonsibility to judge or referee the competition the way they view it within the peramiters of the rubric or rules. I believe in both drum corps and athletics, there is always that interpretation of the rule or judging rubric. The best way I can explain is, the judge in the caption gives corp A a 9.9 out of 10.0 in his caption, but does notice there were some minor issues in what we saw. The same judge then observes corp B and obserevs and assesses the same minor issues in corp B that he did corp A. However, he scores corp B a 9.8 out of 10.0. Should the judge have given the same score to both, but in the judges mind he likes corp A over corp B. Thus, his evaluation and assesment make the argument. I think the judges or referees discretion is their own. They are entitled to that opinion and observation of assesment. However in athletics, we as coaches observe the referees and coach the game in the way we know the referee calls the game. In some instances, we as coaches are allowed to blackball certain referees from calling our games if we can fully assess and evaluate his performance as one sided. Making calls one way but not the other way when both athletes are doing the same exact thing, that creates the foul or violation. As in athletics, a turnover or interception changes the game and outcome of the activity. A drop banner or equipment, caught out of step, dropped drum stick, spacing in drill or late attacks and releases do not warrant a high score. Those to are just like turnovers and interceptions and should change the assesment of the score.

I hope I made my example easy to understand.

[Michael Boo]

...My thought is, we have seen Carolina Crown, Bluecoats, Glassmen and I think Crossmen, sneak in to the top 5 or 6. Possesing the ability and instructional consistency, to knock on the door of the top 5. What does do you think it takes for well organized programs like the ones I have mentioned, to take that next step in claiming the championship, if they too are working very hard to win like the previous championship programs?

...

Like The Cadets did when they first started moving up. They had trouble making finals and then in 1980 were 10th, then 7th, 3rd and 1st. But also, remember who they had on staff...people like George Zingali and Jim Prime, Jr. re-inventing the art of drum corps in front of our very eyes. And then the corps performed it exceptionally well. Then Cavaliers got a great instructional and creative staff together. 1983-11th, then 9th, 8th, 5th, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd, and then they finally won. The fact is they didn't give up and the staff largely stayed together for continuity all that time.

Great programs have staff changes, but for the most part, there is great continuity from year to year...example Wayne Downey and Jay Murphy, who have been with Devils for decades. And Scott Chandler has now been there a long time, as has Scott Johnson. Great programs thrive on such continuity.

But drum corps is not static, and what it took to win in the past might not work in the future. The great programs have an uncanny ability to recognize change and adjust to it. And partially due to the stability of excellence year in and out, their membership base remains consistent and the best talent out there wants in.

[KingJoeVII]

I do not think there is a difference between a direct competitive activity and an indirect judged activity. In competition, may it be drum corps or an athletic events, judges or referees are held to some repsonsibility to judge or referee the competition the way they view it within the peramiters of the rubric or rules. I believe in both drum corps and athletics, there is always that interpretation of the rule or judging rubric. The best way I can explain is, the judge in the caption gives corp A a 9.9 out of 10.0 in his caption, but does notice there were some minor issues in what we saw. The same judge then observes corp B and obserevs and assesses the same minor issues in corp B that he did corp A. However, he scores corp B a 9.8 out of 10.0. Should the judge have given the same score to both, but in the judges mind he likes corp A over corp B. Thus, his evaluation and assesment make the argument. I think the judges or referees discretion is their own. They are entitled to that opinion and observation of assesment. However in athletics, we as coaches observe the referees and coach the game in the way we know the referee calls the game. In some instances, we as coaches are allowed to blackball certain referees from calling our games if we can fully assess and evaluate his performance as one sided. Making calls one way but not the other way when both athletes are doing the same exact thing, that creates the foul or violation. As in athletics, a turnover or interception changes the game and outcome of the activity. A drop banner or equipment, caught out of step, dropped drum stick, spacing in drill or late attacks and releases do not warrant a high score. Those to are just like turnovers and interceptions and should change the assesment of the score.

I hope I made my example easy to understand.

Wow,

I really do not believe that you cannot see the obvious difference between a direct competitive activity and a judged one. Sure there are arbiters in each, but their role is completely different. In a judged activity, they directly evaluate and intervene to decide the winner of the contest. There can be no competition without a judge to act as arbiter. In a directly competitive activity, judges are there to enforce certain guidelines and to make the competition fair for both sides. There CAN be a clear winner or looser even if the judges or officials are not there (i.e. street ball).

I understand your example and the connection you make between how officials may call a game and how judges judge a competition, however I do not see how it relates back to your original point (which I believe was something dealing with a comparison of DCI champions to a variety of champions in other sports). The examples of subjectivity in referee calls that you give do not directly affect the competitive aspect of the game (well, you are going to argue that a blown call or biased refs DO have an effect on the outcome, however my response to that is it is still not a direct effect - which is what we are talking about here). What I mean is at the end of the game, there is objectively a team with more points and team with less points that are a direct result of an objective activity (how many times the ball went through the net). In Drum Corps, at the end of the competition, there is no such objective measure on how well corps performed...it rests solely on what the judges think and the resulting score is the end product of a subjective process.

So that is why comparing DCI to a directly competitive activity is ineffective.

[euponitone]

So that is why comparing DCI to a directly competitive activity is ineffective.

And thats all without talking about drafts, trades, and salary caps - all of which dont exist in dci

[Musical_Spinner]

I'll bite. Lets go with........

BD

Cadets

Cavaliers

PR

SCV

Bloo

Crown

Madison

Blue Knights

Glassmen

Boston

Crossmen

That was my prediction last November

Corps I got right:

BD

Cadets

Cavaliers

PR

SCV

Doesn't seem that impressive at first until you remember what kind of crazy score season it was. I dunno why I didn't put Crown

in front of Bloo (I like em more than Bloo) and why in the world did I have Spirit out of finals? Bah, stupid hype!

Looking through the thread I found my post in I realized lots of people had Cadets down and PR and Bloo waaaaaaay up there, and that is

why I bet this year, NO ONE got it right....and as far as I could tell nobody had the top five right in order except me (but I could be wrong, I didn't check other threads)

[dccorpsfan]

Maybe they're just good.

That's a thought.

[SF2K4]

I do think that it can get a little predictable at times... but what do you suggest they do? Just pick random champions?

Fact of the matter is, it is so predictable because, predictably, the same few corps consistantly produce and perform at the highest possible level. And they do so because they've done so... because they win they attract the staff and members needed to be at that level... not saying that every corps doesn't have a great staff and members... but you can't overlook the fact most every top 3... 6... something corps has a "stacked" roster.

However, more corps are getting into that elusive rotation (Crown, Bluecoats, SCV) so the more corps we get "stacked" the more of a toss-up it'll eventually become.

[cajal]

"I am highly educated"...interesting. I wonder what classes you failed.