What does Phantom Regiment have to do to win?

[festive]

Back to this "better than other corps" thing. It's still an empty term, and subject to the whim of the judging community, at least to some extent. Finals are a full year after the show was initially conceived. So, no. Not buying it, fully anyway. Unless you scrap the show because of what judges said about your design. And what good would that do? Why are you putting on the show at all? To win? To entertain? What?

Apples and oranges. Ask two different judging panels, maybe (I would say probably) you get two different results. If better was an absolute, how could that possibly be? The judging sheets try to lay a veneer of objectivity over it, but at the end of the day, when you lose by 0.1 or less, sorry. You lost because somebody liked an apple more than an orange. And that simply does not translate into "better" in absolute terms. Except, of course, for the fact that someone carts home one of those black tombstones as a souvenir of their travels. About all I can say from this year is that quarters, semis, and finals panels saw their champion and called it. The rest? Could've been anything.

As long as Regiment does their best, in design and performance, I'm not concerned. My issue is that I think maybe certain parts of the program need to be thought about. Not that what they are doing isn't great, because musically, the corps is untouchable (and sorry if the judging community doesn't agree... Visually, it's cool. I just want more from it. I dunno.

And what about GE? How did something so hideous get into a judging system? Quantify it better or get it out of there, especially when even DCI TV commentators have to question what show the judges were watching when talking about GE scores.

Higher score = better? Always? And what happens when it doesn't? Because one must be of great faith to believe a system like this works in every case. I happen to think that, as a human system, it doesn't always work. And we deal with it and move on, because it is less important than other things. It's great to win. It's better to win at your own game, by setting a goal for yourself and achieving it, and if judges happen to like you, too, then cool.

Regiment doesn't do anything less than win every year, from the perspective of what I think about the members. I'd rather focus on that, and that'll be where I leave this one.

[Peel Paint]

And what about GE? How did something so hideous get into a judging system? Quantify it better or get it out of there, especially when even DCI TV commentators have to question what show the judges were watching when talking about GE scores.

This really does need to be addressed. Not for Phantom's sake, but for DCI's. GE judging as it's practiced in DCI is just something totally out of whack with the way most corps people perceive effect. I know the GE judges do it somewhat consistently, but if you roll tape and analyze shows, nobody else understands it or can predict consistently what will score what, if you take the corps out of their uniforms so it's performance and not reputation that's getting judged. ESPECIALLY since only two judges get 40% of the final determining weight of the entire judging panel. Yikes. That's just asking for abuse, when the criteria are so subjective, IMO.

Edited September 7, 2007 by Peel Paint

[dbc03]

Back to this "better than other corps" thing. It's still an empty term, and subject to the whim of the judging community, at least to some extent. Finals are a full year after the show was initially conceived. So, no. Not buying it, fully anyway. Unless you scrap the show because of what judges said about your design. And what good would that do? Why are you putting on the show at all? To win? To entertain? What?

Apples and oranges. Ask two different judging panels, maybe (I would say probably) you get two different results. If better was an absolute, how could that possibly be? The judging sheets try to lay a veneer of objectivity over it, but at the end of the day, when you lose by 0.1 or less, sorry. You lost because somebody liked an apple more than an orange. And that simply does not translate into "better" in absolute terms. Except, of course, for the fact that someone carts home one of those black tombstones as a souvenir of their travels. About all I can say from this year is that quarters, semis, and finals panels saw their champion and called it. The rest? Could've been anything.

As long as Regiment does their best, in design and performance, I'm not concerned. My issue is that I think maybe certain parts of the program need to be thought about. Not that what they are doing isn't great, because musically, the corps is untouchable (and sorry if the judging community doesn't agree... Visually, it's cool. I just want more from it. I dunno.

And what about GE? How did something so hideous get into a judging system? Quantify it better or get it out of there, especially when even DCI TV commentators have to question what show the judges were watching when talking about GE scores.

Higher score = better? Always? And what happens when it doesn't? Because one must be of great faith to believe a system like this works in every case. I happen to think that, as a human system, it doesn't always work. And we deal with it and move on, because it is less important than other things. It's great to win. It's better to win at your own game, by setting a goal for yourself and achieving it, and if judges happen to like you, too, then cool.

Regiment doesn't do anything less than win every year, from the perspective of what I think about the members. I'd rather focus on that, and that'll be where I leave this one.

What you are basically saying is that being better basically comes down to the opinions of 9 judges.

To that I say "Duh" but the topic is about what Phantom has to do to win a world championship. To win a world championship they have to design a show that 9 people think is better than the other shows and that 9 people think they perform better than the other corps.

[festive]

To that I say "Duh" but the topic is about what Phantom has to do to win a world championship. To win a world championship they have to design a show that 9 people think is better than the other shows and that 9 people think they perform better than the other corps.

Duh. Duh is right. Nine people. Which nine?

It's BS, dude. You get the right 9, you win. You get the wrong 9 (or even the wrong 1), you lose.

Duh.

[madalumni]

I skipped to the end here, so sorry if this has been covered...the poster above me said

something to the effect of how the visual is great but leaves you wanting more.

I think they just need to crank the design up another notch. Not necessarilly moving

faster or anything, but developing more of a unique "signature" style of drill.

If you look at Cavaliers and Cadets, they have an unmistakeable visual vocabulary

that is often immitated by many corps, but rarely ever matched. If Phantom can find their

own distinct visual vocabulary, (or improve on what they already have) they will have the complete package.

[year1buick]

I think they're on the right track and are miles ahead of where they were in the late 90's/early 00's. This is a testament to the quality and dedication of the corps staff. However, I do agree somewhat with the sentiment that the corps' shows sometimes feel a little too incomplete in the beginning. This is nothing new--our show in 94 was completely different from June to July to August. I'm not talking tweaks either--completely different. (Mostly drill, but some music as well.) It was in a constant state of flux and cleaning didn't really start until August. This doesn't mean that everything should be set in stone--what sounds good on paper may not always translate well on the field. Still, the corps might benefit from having the overall show more in-place by the time actual competition begins.

[TAFL]

Even when Cadets got second, I firmly believe that it was in spite of the narration...that the corps underneath the controversy really was that talented. And the narration, itself, wasn't, IMO, "innovative." It was the weakest part of the program, as far as I could tell...and might have cost them the championship.

In my scoring at home, I didn't have the Cadets in the top five--though I thought they executed better than any other corps. I realize the judges are more forgiving of the artsy-fartsy stuff than am I, though I suspect a better show--sans narration, certainly--likely would have won the Cadets the title.

As for Phantom, I'll add to the chorus of toning down the fitness routine...er, show design and spending more time cleaning. I had them placed second--best musically, from what I heard--though unable to match BD, Cavs, Cadets, or SCV in execution. Had Phantom executed better, I would have scored it highest (having the most appealing show to me).

[festive]

If you look at Cavaliers and Cadets, they have an unmistakeable visual vocabulary

that is often immitated by many corps, but rarely ever matched. If Phantom can find their

own distinct visual vocabulary, (or improve on what they already have) they will have the complete package.

Bingo.

[ssorrell]

And by the way, Phantom has been a crowd favorite in the 2000s, but if you go back to the Spartacus years and before, that was not always the case. More than a few fans really disliked them for various reasons back in the 1970s and 1980s.

I have a totally different perspective...I can't think of a year since I've been a member/staffer/fan of drum corps when Phantom was NOT a fan favorite, and my experience dates back to the 70s. 1981 could be the most questionable year, as their first year with Spartacus was somewhat odd in that people just didn't know how to take that show. But still, they were a favorite, nonetheless...at least in my opinion.

And I don't know that I want them to win. Think about it...all we hear year after year is how we are tired of the same corps winning. I'd rather Phantom be somewhere in the top 4, but just under a championship so people won't complain. How many times have we heard people say that they are tired of Phantom getting 2nd...4th?

No really...I'd love to see them win, as they have been a favorite of mine for decades...even back when they were kicking my corps in the nuggets.

[Mellojaphoney]

It's funny 'cause if they did all these things you people reccomend, you would still undermine everything they do-- people are on here saying now Phantom does too much playing and moving? Are you out of your ####### minds?

Edited September 7, 2007 by Mellojaphoney