Pioneer goes Bb

[regularsopguy]

The biggest problem for a touring corps is that no one has parts available right away for any bugles. That is just the fact of the demand. It doesn't make sense for the mobile brass shop guys to carry bugle parts for 1 or 2 corps when the rest all use different types of horns.

It did take me a long time to get some parts for my Kanstul, but that wasn't a major issue for me because I wasn't having to use the instrument all the time. (It may have just been a fluke or maybe my repair tech was slow on getting the parts ordered. I never meant to say the Kanstul was bad or anything.) I happen to love my Kanstul Bugle Euphs.

Downtime like that really hurts on tour. (The Pioneer insider even said that this has been an issue. Not sure what brand it was issue with.)

The idea was brought up in an earlier post that maybe the Alumni and friends could have helped cover the extra costs of buying bugles again.

How much (if any) is there a difference in price between bugles and Bb's? I doubt that it would have much to do with the decision to go to Bb.

Did a little research on prices of Bb.

Here is what I found on Woodwind Brasswind, and musicians friend (Only places I could find retail prices of Bb marching brass.)

Kanstul Model 200 5/4 Marching Tuba $5060 (at www.wwbw.com) Price is much cheaper than either Kanstul Contra Bugles.

Kanstul Coliseum Marching Bb Trumpet $930 (also at www.wwbw.com) That one is more expensive than either Soprano Bugle.

King Ultimate Brass marching French Horn in F Model 1122 $1620 (at www.wwbw.com) Much more expensive than a Kanstul French Horn Bugle. (I couldn't prices for any Kanstul marching Bb version of these.)

King Ultimate Brass marching Baritone Bb $1650 ( at www.wwbw.com) Again much more expensive than a knastul bugle.

Yamaha 301MS marching Baritone Bb $1899 (at www.musiciansfriend.com) Same as the bari

and a Yamaha 202MS Marching Euphonium $1999 (at www.musiansfriend.com) Slightly less than a Kanstul Bugle.

It looks like one set being way more than the other is not really the issue. I guess price would not really be the deciding factor in the equation then.

wow, great assessment. I've been saying for awhile that Kanstul is not that much more expensive and now it seems i'm proven mostly right. my school invested in Kanstul, which will retain their value over time. the expenditure was worthwhile. i know some shcools that purchased dynasty and are having to replace them after only three or four seasons. not so with Yamaha which seems to hold up (from the directors I know), the Kings of course are also sturdy.

i ike the sound of Kanstul, which doesn't seem as shrill as some horns. if it was my program i'd look closely at Kanstul and try to make that investment.

[Donny Drum Corps]

I believe that Roman went with...the one with free financing.

[ripper]

UUMMM BIG HINT PIONEER ARE KINGS OF THE FIELD

[Donny Drum Corps]

Yes they are...

[notelvis]

I don't recall the exact lineup but, when my wife and I attended Madison's home show in 2002, I pointed out that this was likely the last time we would be at a show where every corps in the lineup was using G bugles as they were that night.

The fact is that continuing to hold out on G bugles was putting Pioneer at a competitive disadvantage.......and it's a little Don Quixotesque trying to recruit kids willing to keep coming in dead last for a principle.

Edited October 21, 2007 by notelvis

[roosevelt]

While I am sure that Pioneer was hurt at times by playing G bugles that was not the main reason that they were finishing where they were in brass.

[Donny Drum Corps]

Nope, you are correct in that assessment. Nobody ever said that Pioneer was last ONLY because of the instruments of choice. There were many other reasons, but the biggest one was that the other horn lines were better than them, no matter what horns they played on. I won't argue that point. Even the lower tier corps played very well. And they sounded different than Pioneer as a result of instrument quality, sonority and key. I never argued placement with judges...I did at times argue score, because they just wouldn't come up in score although the corps improved tremendously.

I am not saying that was the only reason. Here are some excuses...LOL

The corps started WAY late getting the show finalized. They changed caption heads right before the season. They had 20 horn players less than everyone else. We learned drill too late and made far too many changes after it was learned. They a slight disadvatage in the talent pool department as well. We had people learning to play in the horn arc. On tour, we usually had minimal practice time after travelling all night. We had a VERY demanding show schedule to get to California. We were understaffed. We saw too many "first read" judges that would drop us to where we were 2 weeks prior. I could go on. But no one is going to say that playing on G horns was the ONLY reason the corps came as low in the placements as we did. I do think that it was a contributing factor though. One of way too many...

The point is...

... things are changing and hopefully we can make a difference. This is a great first step of many that can improve the quality of brass sound at Pioneer. The staff is communicating very well at this juncture of the season. There is a comprehensive brass pedagogy program already in place that will be maintained and revised as needed. We are hopefully looking to improve the quality of the show literature to be more competitive. Many things are looking very positive. Hopefully we can live up to the corps motto..."Better Every Day".

Donny

[Tom Brace]

Nope, you are correct in that assessment. Nobody ever said that Pioneer was last ONLY because of the instruments of choice. There were many other reasons, but the biggest one was that the other horn lines were better than them, no matter what horns they played on. I won't argue that point. Even the lower tier corps played very well. And they sounded different than Pioneer as a result of instrument quality, sonority and key. I never argued placement with judges...I did at times argue score, because they just wouldn't come up in score although the corps improved tremendously.

I am not saying that was the only reason. Here are some excuses...LOL

The corps started WAY late getting the show finalized. They changed caption heads right before the season. They had 20 horn players less than everyone else. We learned drill too late and made far too many changes after it was learned. They a slight disadvatage in the talent pool department as well. We had people learning to play in the horn arc. On tour, we usually had minimal practice time after travelling all night. We had a VERY demanding show schedule to get to California. We were understaffed. We saw too many "first read" judges that would drop us to where we were 2 weeks prior. I could go on. But no one is going to say that playing on G horns was the ONLY reason the corps came as low in the placements as we did. I do think that it was a contributing factor though. One of way too many...

The point is...

... things are changing and hopefully we can make a difference. This is a great first step of many that can improve the quality of brass sound at Pioneer. The staff is communicating very well at this juncture of the season. There is a comprehensive brass pedagogy program already in place that will be maintained and revised as needed. We are hopefully looking to improve the quality of the show literature to be more competitive. Many things are looking very positive. Hopefully we can live up to the corps motto..."Better Every Day".

Donny

Donny...I was talking to a colleague last evening, specifically about Pioneer. It was a corps that at times had their drums together, at times had a pretty good guard program...now it seems like their horns are developing. When they won all those Div. II championships back in the early and mid 90s, it seemed to me that all three sections fired on all cylinders. Sure, competing in World Class is different than Div. II, but at one point, especially after last year's pre-season fiascos with the music and drill, a complete, cohesive staff has to emerge for Pioneer to move up.

I think the brass is turning the corner. Much of that develop seems to center around the addition of staff who has their act together <read - YOU!> Now if the rest of the staff has their schtuff together this year, you guys may have people to look at in your rear view mirrors.

Now go get you some potential members!!!

[Donny Drum Corps]

Thanks Tom...and you know, someone has to teach Pioneer. I appreciate your comments.

I am an old war horse in this activity and I dont mind teaching the talent level that Pioneer gets year to year. I dont feel that with as much experience as I have I am above trying to make this corps better. They need to have a sincere involvement from staff that is willing and trained. I dont mind doing that. I have dealt with Roman before and know what it takes to work there and that is more important than most people realize.

Most of the staff has been retained and is returning. This is HUGE! We have a different drill writer with lots of experience. But the brass, percussion and guard staff is returning with additional help in all three areas becoming available. There is progress here.

We are meeting this week in Milwaukee to discuss show material and there are some great conceptual thoughts in this regard. Hopefully later this week, we will be talking about what the show is going to be.

I am just trying to be positive about my involvement at Pioneer. I am not used having a sub standard brass program, even in DCA, and quite honestly as the season progressed last year, there some very decent sounds coming form that horn line. Hopefully we can get it to another level of competency this year. Make top 12...I doubt it, but some progression towards a higher quality and performance level.

Thanks again!

Donny

[Donny Drum Corps]

The deal has been finalized and Pioneer will be on the field this coming summer playing KING marching brass. The horns are guaranteed to be at the first camp/banquet in November. The date is November 16, 17 and 18 and is one week before the rest of the world LOL. If you are an interested brass player with some desire to compete, please do not shy away from Pioneer. Things are definitely changing to the good side. We are looking to "beef up" the numbers to get to the competitve field.

So there it is...KING!!!!

Donny