RIP, drum corps I knew

[LAMystreaux]

The condition of the horns affecting the score vs the assertion that switching to Bb to improve the scores are 2 different things.

Being told their scores would improve if they got a new line of horns is something else again...and a suggestion of gong to Bb due to the lower cost compared to buing a new G line is, again, different.

It depends on how it was truly presented.

I know that, and thought I stated that in one of my previous posts. It is unfortunate that some of the brass judges feel this way, but in the end, that hornline was playing on inferior equipment and more than likely deserved their placement regardless of what part of the brass judging community feels.

[ssorrell]

No matter how YOU personally feel about this issue, with the passing of this very controversial rule, it is already evident by reading the posts of a few on this thread, that DCI will lose the support of some long time fans and alumni. I don't think that can be argued.

Many corps rely very heavily on their alumni support. Whether this evolution is a good thing or a bad thing in the progress of our activity, it is inevitable that many alumni will find this the perfect time to withdraw from an activity that they can no longer identify with. With the change from G bugles we saw many older alumni begin to pull away from the activity. With the addition of amps, we saw a few more walk away. Now we have yet another VERY BIG reason for traditionalists and purists to find better things to do with their time than attend a drum corps show and support their former corps and drum corps in general.

Many people claim that those that walk won't be missed...that they are just close minded. they claim that the new fans that we gain that like the new and progressive drum corps era might replace them. True, perhaps. But, looking at it from the perspective of a former alumni president who counted on the donations and support of alumni to help the corps survive, I'm scared. Newer alumni don't have the disposable income that older alumni have. They can't open their wallets in support of their former or favorite corps. So, although this is pure speculation, I fully believe that with rules changes like this one, it will become harder and harder for alumni associations to operate...and as I've indicated, many corps rely on their alumni associations and donations directly to the corps from alumni.

There are hundreds/thousands of alumni out there that are never heard. They attend a show or two each year. They don't post on DCP. They might send a donation check to their former corps as part of a fund raising drive. That's pretty much the extent of their association with drum corps. Some of those that have been supportive over the years will be lost...I have no doubt. Case in point...a few years back I was Spirit's alumni president. When we were faced with a dire situation...possibly folding in June of 2000...our alumni came out of the woodwork in support. Several thousand dollars were raised in a matter of hours to keep our corps going. Most of those alumni hadn't been seen or heard in years. They were the "silent" force that saved our corps. But as the years passed and rules began to change, even though I was no longer the president of the SOAAA, I heard from many former members that just couldn't justify their continued support as they didn't agree with the direction of the activity.

So, no matter what side of the fence you find yourself, from a support POV, it will most definitely become more difficult to garner the support of our former members...especially those that marched pre-2000, when the traditional aspects of drum corps began to significantly change.

[DrumCorpsFan27]

The judges were ignoring that they were playing on poor instruments? Sorry, but that does not register. Were they not placing last in brass?

I don't think the judges ignored it, but they didn't say "you need better instruments." They said you need Bbs or you will continue to be in last place, according to Donny, who was there. That's a big difference.

[DrumCorpsFan27]

Crappy horns usually equals poor performance. I would not think a judge would need to see the horns. They could hear it in the sound.

Not only that, how many brass judges made this promise? Since we don't know this, you can't blanket statement the whole of the judging community. I think many would agree that G or not, Pioneer deserved their brass placement, even though they were improved over past seasons.

Well, a judge on the field can see what the horns look like. They can also see if they are from different manufacturers as well.

Now TX, you dismissed the original statement as fiction until you were given proof. One person gave you proof and you dismissed it based on the content of the post. You have now been give more direct proof and you continue to dismiss it because you don't know how many judges said it. Donny said that those comments were made in "more than a few citiques." We have also had examples of judges telling corps that there pits needed to be amped in order to maximize there scores. More and more we find that these are not so isolated incidents.

[LAMystreaux]

I don't think the judges ignored it, but they didn't say "you need better instruments." They said you need Bbs or you will continue to be in last place, according to Donny, who was there. That's a big difference.

Some of the judges, yes, but not all of them, and again, would they have placed higher had they not been on G, we will never know. One of the factors why is the condition of the horns they were using.

[DrumCorpsFan27]

Duct tape is the same color as chrome. Besides, if I were a field brass judge, my primary focus would be on listening to the brass and avoiding collisions with performers in the process.

Are you suggesting that brass judges would judge a corps based on the appearance of their horns, rather than their sound?

I do think that judges take notice of the condition of the instruments while adjudicating. Right or wrong, I don't think that they are so lost in the sound that they do not see.

[drumcat]

No matter how YOU personally feel about this issue, with the passing of this very controversial rule, it is already evident by reading the posts of a few on this thread, that DCI will lose the support of some long time fans and alumni. I don't think that can be argued.

Many corps rely very heavily on their alumni support. Whether this evolution is a good thing or a bad thing in the progress of our activity, it is inevitable that many alumni will find this the perfect time to withdraw from an activity that they can no longer identify with. With the change from G bugles we saw many older alumni begin to pull away from the activity. With the addition of amps, we saw a few more walk away. Now we have yet another VERY BIG reason for traditionalists and purists to find better things to do with their time than attend a drum corps show and support their former corps and drum corps in general.

Many people claim that those that walk won't be missed...that they are just close minded. they claim that the new fans that we gain that like the new and progressive drum corps era might replace them. True, perhaps. But, looking at it from the perspective of a former alumni president who counted on the donations and support of alumni to help the corps survive, I'm scared. Newer alumni don't have the disposable income that older alumni have. They can't open their wallets in support of their former or favorite corps. So, although this is pure speculation, I fully believe that with rules changes like this one, it will become harder and harder for alumni associations to operate...and as I've indicated, many corps rely on their alumni associations and donations directly to the corps from alumni.

There are hundreds/thousands of alumni out there that are never heard. They attend a show or two each year. They don't post on DCP. They might send a donation check to their former corps as part of a fund raising drive. That's pretty much the extent of their association with drum corps. Some of those that have been supportive over the years will be lost...I have no doubt. Case in point...a few years back I was Spirit's alumni president. When we were faced with a dire situation...possibly folding in June of 2000...our alumni came out of the woodwork in support. Several thousand dollars were raised in a matter of hours to keep our corps going. Most of those alumni hadn't been seen or heard in years. They were the "silent" force that saved our corps. But as the years passed and rules began to change, even though I was no longer the president of the SOAAA, I heard from many former members that just couldn't justify their continued support as they didn't agree with the direction of the activity.

So, no matter what side of the fence you find yourself, from a support POV, it will most definitely become more difficult to garner the support of our former members...especially those that marched pre-2000, when the traditional aspects of drum corps began to significantly change.

This sums it up for me... I'm saddened that the music will forever be different. I'm just as concerned that if I feel the way I do, many fans and alumni feel the way I do. If that's even somewhat accurate, I worry about the support that drum corps may find harder to acquire.

I think it's going to be a very hard sell to fans and alumni when corps shake the fuel donation can, given this change and the added costs. It's going to make the needs of corps fall on deaf ears. How can you justify asking for gas if you can afford equipment that certainly hasn't been necessary for all these years? Bb - justifiable via resale. Amps - potentially saves in the long run with less keyboard equipment. Electronics? What would make you think that it would help, given that amps have been such a lukewarm change?

What's the next fundraiser -- help the corps buy software?

[audiodb]

Common sense would tell you that it did. Even a fantastic performer's sound can be hindered with poor equipment.

I had a brace come loose on my horn once. Duct tape held it in place until it could be re-soldered. Didn't affect my sound at all.

[DrumCorpsFan27]

Some of the judges, yes, but not all of them, and again, would they have placed higher had they not been on G, we will never know. One of the factors why is the condition of the horns they were using.

Have I denied that the condition of the horns were not a factor? Have I argued the Pioneer should have placed higher? I have not. I will even agree with you, whole-heartedly, that condition of the horns effects the sound in a diminuative manner. But when several judges tell you that you will continue to place last (since they have no idea of the quality of horns or players Pioneer will have in the future) makes a huge statement about what is "alllowed" vs what is "acceptable."

Let's face it TX, you asked for proof and you got it in black and white, unless you are calling Donny a liar.

[LAMystreaux]

Well, a judge on the field can see what the horns look like. They can also see if they are from different manufacturers as well.

Now TX, you dismissed the original statement as fiction until you were given proof. One person gave you proof and you dismissed it based on the content of the post. You have now been give more direct proof and you continue to dismiss it because you don't know how many judges said it. Donny said that those comments were made in "more than a few citiques." We have also had examples of judges telling corps that there pits needed to be amped in order to maximize there scores. More and more we find that these are not so isolated incidents.

I have not dismissed it at all. I have said several times now that it is unfortunate some brass judges feel that way.