The Official 2008 Madison Scouts Discussion Thread

[Mad75]

When you talk about "transparency", to me, disclosure is a crucial element.

DCI's primary mission is to hold drum corps competitions. It seems to me that if you wanted to do this in a transparent manner, then you would make the following information readily available to the public:

1. Rules and guidelines

2. Judging criteria

3. Judges qualifications and background

Vince, what's going on in NY?

I agree, disclosure is an important element of transparency. Furthermore, yours and others lists of adjudication requirements within this medium should be considered at the very least basic and fundamental. In other words, I believe that a few very basic improvements might go a long way to bring improvement to the judging community.

[Green Fleurdelis]

Then explain how the scores for the lower corps in finals always drop, while the scores of the upper corps always increase.

To the extent that this is true, my theory has always been that on finals night, the judges (consciously or unconsciously) increase the spread between the top corps and the bottom corps in order to ensure that the ranking they perceive via their adjudication is very clearly articulated by the scores they assign.

An unintended consequence of this is that it becomes harder for a corps to rise or fall in the rankings, even if one component of their overall show is performed brilliantly that night and also even if it gets scored appropriately.

Placement orders are always right IMO, but the way people explain scores and spreads is absurd.

It is especially absurd comparing scores and spreads between different shows on different nights with different judges. Head to head competition is the only way to truly determine the relative ranking between two corps.

Those have nothng to do with PERFORMANCE on a given night. ... Ive said this over and over for a long time now, performance is taking a back seat to design. Why not just award the medals directly to the design people because it seems no matter how perfectly or imperfectly the kids perform what theyre given, the scoring criteria ignores it.

(bolding mine) I agree with this. Though as has been pointed out earlier in this thread Dan, I don't think the tick system was any more objective than the current system. More to your point, design is king. Especially visual design. Now don't get me wrong, I really like and appreciate a good drill. However the current system seems to be unbalanced. I don't understand the recap judging categories.

What *is* the difference between Visual GE and Visual Ensemble? Between GE Visual Performance and Visual Performance? It sure seems like double counting to me.

But what do I know? I'm just an old fart who marched waaaaaayyyy back in the 1960s.

Edited July 17, 2008 by Green Fleurdelis

[vferrera]

Vince, what's going on in NY?

Quite a bit. Remember free days in NYC? It's pretty much the same, only minus much of the crime and filth (just enough to keep things interesting).

What's not going on is anything related to DCI. Because "it's just too expensive to hold a drum corps show in NYC." So my drum corps experience is 2 shows (Naperville, MI City while visiting the folks), the Fan Network and the occasional alumni corps. You might even catch me in "a different shade of green" if you go to semifinals.

[Green Fleurdelis]

You might even catch me in "a different shade of green" if you go to semifinals.

Are you marching with the Cavalier Alumni Corps? I have a couple of good friends marching with them.

[Brent]

Brent,

Regarding the the goals and status of the Scouts, I couldn't agree more. But, when a judge tells you in defense of their numbers that they "don't care for your style".........game over! I contend that faith in our rose colored glasses regarding as you say "assuming the judges are correct" and have the corps best interest at heart is, shall we say, absolute blind faith. I'm also believing in that winning "Power Ball" ticket any day now. Again, one of the best examples is to simply consider the fact that Oakland Crusaders percussion line took top honors in 1977 while the corps didn't even make finals........They achieved that feet simply based upon their own merits (as should be). Today, that's not remotely possible and I would think everyone here would consider that to be disturbingly sad. But what's even more amazing, is that there are those hear that not only don't have a problem with it, they'll argue all of the wonderful merits of this system. No problem, it's incumbent upon all of us to understand the world in which we live and that there will always be those that try to convince you its raining out while peeing down your leg.

The system is indeed flawed. Not sure what we can do about that except to participate in the process as corps instructors and administrators. In that way we can determine the criteria for adjudication; and then demonstrate our ability to design and perform a quality product (that allows the drum and bugle corps activity to grow). No system will be without flaws, btw. I believe the tick system had subjective flaws as well. As someone who struggled with this as a Madison Scout marching member from 87-89 and as an instructor with the Madison Scouts from 90-96 & 07, it can be frustrating. Again, we as outsiders have a different job than those inside designing and teaching. Each role only has limited capacity to influence the adjudication system, but the one thing we can ALL control is becoming the best _______ (member, designer, alumnus, etc.) that we can be from year to year. That ensures success and a positive experience. The worst part of the drum corps day for the members is usually the scores, because there is only one "winner." Well, that is the system we have chosen to be a part. Let's do it as good as we can, or go do Brass Theatre. There are other options.

GO SCOUTS!

Edited July 17, 2008 by Brent

[vferrera]

Are you marching with the Cavalier Alumni Corps? I have a couple of good friends marching with them.

Cavalier Anniversary Corps. But, yes, it's all alumni. Quite a different experience than the MSARP. But it was time to start re-building some bridges. So far, it's been a pretty cool ride. There's a picture from MI City of 300 current + former Cavaliers and right in the middle is my dad and Don Warren. Few people here would recognize the historical significance, but it means a lot to me. I'll post it somewhere if I can figure out a way to do that.

[MikeD]

Brent,

Regarding the the goals and status of the Scouts, I couldn't agree more. But, when a judge tells you in defense of their numbers that they "don't care for your style".........game over!

If a judge used that comment as the basis for their number then that judge did not do his/her job. If the judge had a rationale as to why that style did not 'work' and communicated that to the staff or on the tape, then it might be the starting point for some valid reasons.

In and of itself the statement is meaningless...or should be meaningless....in coming up with a number.

[MikeD]

What youve described is not in any way exact but fairly subjective and preserves all the advantages for the top few corps. If in fact the top corps are performing at a level so vastly superior then there has to be a transparent and objective way to quantify it.

However imperfect, the tick system considered all corps perfect as they stepped onto to the field. Todays system as I described above seems to build much of the score so a few elite corps have won before they have even stepped onto the field.

Ticks were no more objective than the system in place today, and a lot less accurate a measure of what makes up a complete performance. The 'elite' win because they perform the best.

[MikeD]

When considering COI, it's the relationship between the evaluator and the person or group being evaluated that is relevant. It's standard practice to disclose such relationships when they exist. It does not necessarily exclude one from providing an evaluation.

You can go to the Scouts website and get fairly detailed bios on all their staff members:

http://www.madisonscouts.org/Madison%20Scouts/Staff.html

DCI should provide the same information for judges.

A corps is looking to attract new members and supporters, hence it makes sense to make their staf bios public. DCI judges are not remotelhy the same thing, IMO, and I see no reason why DCI should be expected to create the same sort of thing on their website. The target audience for any of that information are the staffs of the corps, not the public.

[victrussell]

When you compare Madison's guard (their work, presence, use of color, and ability) with other corps, they are woefully inadequate. Like it or don't but the activity has become more visual heavy. A small guard (even though two guys were added, Scouts' is still small in comparison) that doesn't look like a well-oiled machine, is going to drag you down in all visual captions.

I strongly disagree with your opinion concerning the Scouts guard. As I posted previously, the Scouts guard is beautifully integrated into the Scouts visual program and drill whereas, for example, a corps like the Blue Devils has a guard that completely overpowers and overshadows the rest of the BD corps. I think a good visual program should be about balance and integration. I much prefer the Scouts approach to using its guard. It may be that the the Blue Devils guard is better at twirling its sticks and flags, but that is not what I look for in a drum corps show.

Vic Russell