Intimidation vs. Leadership

[oldtimedrummer]

I'm interested in hearing from corps vets--and corps parents--on how the various DCI organizations train their members. I've heard (secondhand) that a particular group trains to the breaking point, using long hours and heavy-handed tactics to push members' performance. Corps vets: how did your corps train? Were you inspired to perform, or broken and remade, a la Marine Corps style ideology? Corps parents: how do YOU feel about turning your children over to an organization that is unafraid to scream, intimidate, or otherwise demean in the name of 'passion' and 'performance?'

How do the top corps--the ones that have a stranglehold on the upper echelon--train? I'm curious.

Discuss amongst yourselves...but posting would be instructive. Thanks!

I believe the best approach to training is to work hard but also smart. Proper rest, diet, staying positive, asking the kids for what you want, instead of telling what you don't want. Sometimes a little down time or an extra hour sleep can do wonders for the attitude. The screaming and yelling just isn't it IMO. It amazes me when a director has the corps get off the bus and head to the field at 7am, and then wonder why they look tired at 8pm. The performance is when you want to be at your peak. I don't see athletes train and sweat all day and then go play the game or run the race. Granted, it's the nature of our activity. But, a good staff should be aware of when they are getting diminishing returns. The visual staffs seem to be the worst offenders at grinding. Overall, I've seen huge improvements in the quality of instruction over the years, probably because you have so many educators now involved.

[CoatsContraDad]

Well, I can't comment on BD of today, but back in 84 I don't ever remember being yelled at my staff....being talked to with a stern voice, yes...but never screaming like a bad Drill Instructor

Fact is, the staff didn't HAVE to come down on rookies like me...the vets did that by example. I was never taken aside and threatened in anyt way...the vets did the same stuff the rest of us did...snapping to attention when called, pinging their horn bells when they fracked or dropping for pushups after a set run (to aknowledge and take responsibility for the mistake, not as punishment), etc.

On the field, if I had a question about the drill (which as a corps rookie, I did), I was never told "figure it out"...I was helped with findign a solution....even once to the point of a minor drill change to accomodate the fact that I was looking out the side of my glasses to the right, and my right eye is VERY near-sighted...to the point where I could not dress the form.

We got adequate breaks, food, and water (in fact, we ate better than a lot of corps that year), and I never felt put upon by anyone (the three snuggies I got don't really count in the long run)

The only time I remember Wayne getting upset with the brass line was one night when we were in sectional. We were on a break, and as brass guys are wont to do, farting around with some truly horrid sounds coming out the bells.

Wayne lets the break run its course, calls up to attention, and said in a conversational and non-confrontational voice that he had never before heard some ugly sounds from any pro or semi-pro group and that he did not expect to hear them again (he might as well been reading the weather report....that's how bland his delivery was). And y'know what? He DIDN'T hear them again....we new then that we'd not only let him down, we'd let ourselves down...and we never let it happen again.

Thanks Sam! That's the kind of insight I was hoping to find. It sounds like a lot of responsibility was placed on your vets, if I'm reading your post correctly, to make sure the rookies were up to speed on standards.

[CoatsContraDad]

I believe the best approach to training is to work hard but also smart. Proper rest, diet, staying positive, asking the kids for what you want, instead of telling what you don't want. Sometimes a little down time or an extra hour sleep can do wonders for the attitude. The screaming and yelling just isn't it IMO. It amazes me when a director has the corps get off the bus and head to the field at 7am, and then wonder why they look tired at 8pm. The performance is when you want to be at your peak. I don't see athletes train and sweat all day and then go play the game or run the race. Granted, it's the nature of our activity. But, a good staff should be aware of when they are getting diminishing returns. The visual staffs seem to be the worst offenders at grinding. Overall, I've seen huge improvements in the quality of instruction over the years, probably because you have so many educators now involved.

Appreciate your insight--sounds like more of a common sense, inspirational type of leadership than one based on intimidation.

[spanksregular]

Hey, thanks for your insight--it's much appreciated. Question: how did your staff handle bad shows, or particular sections not performing up to standards? (Realizing that 'standards' are what it's all about, what with corps tradition, competition during the season, etc. It's why they keep score; that's understood.) What was the training/rehearsal vibe like after a not-so-hot performance?

Anyone?

It depends, we never worried about scores, so that wasn't even in the equation. In fact, it was rare that the staff even mentioned anything about scores to us, and even then those were normally in positive situations. As far as bad shows, if a section hacked on a soli, or something else went wrong like a timing tear, it really depended on the context. The separate captions always had different views, director might be mad, vis staff might be happy, brass staff could be happy, it really did depend. Granted, I can't remember the corps having such a terrible show that the staff was actually angry. Rehearsals and run-throughs, definitely.....oh definitely. Either way, it's not like we weren't a competitive top 12 corps, so there is no right or wrong answer to the question of how to run a group...

Not all the horror stories are true

If they were nobody would march Cadets

I have friends that are marching at the Cadets as we speak, and I've known people that marched in the past. I haven't heard anything that's completely out there. Five hour blocks day to day during move-ins isn't out there, but it's still pretty #### hard.

Edited July 5, 2008 by spanksregular

[dbc03]

Folks, this isn't a sneaky way to bash the Cadets--that's not what I'm looking for here. I'm more interested in some real-world experience from those of you who've been on the road--and some of your parents, too, if'n ya'll are amenable to posting.

I was only responding to what spanks posted. However, I think a lot of people will assume you are talking about The Cadets in the OP because there are a lot of rumors that circulate about their rehearsals.

I can only speak from my experience from the years I marched, but I don't think we were treated poorly by the staff.

Yes, we rehearsed long hours, yes sometimes we got yelled at (and it was deserved 99% of the time). No, I don't think the staff used "heavy-handed" tactics whatever that means (not necessarily aimed at the original post since I've heard similar things from other people outside this thread). In fact I can only think of 1 time off the top of my head that we ever had to do something as punishment (laps etc)

Yes, a lot of our sleep time was on the bus. Yes we also got a couple hours of floor time every night excluding maybe 3 times over the two years I marched.

We were pushed hard, but I don't think you march Cadets and expect not to be pushed hard.

We also ate really well, and were physically taken care of by the full time trainer that was a part of the staff. If someone was seriously injured they weren't told to ignore it and keep marching, they were told to take care of it the right way so that they could get back on the field at 100% ASAP. (However I have heard that at times this wasn't always case in earlier years)

Edited July 5, 2008 by dbc03

[The Other Mike]

As a rookie in 1970, the corps I joined was basically a street gang with instruments. Instructors taught, the way they themselves were taught. Mostly, little patience and loud voices but I feared the people in the corps more than the instructors. Once you made it through your first trip, unless you really did something stupid, you were pretty much home safe.

The most important thing to learn and understand was the two sides of everyone. The practice/performance "in the zone" side, and the person they were the rest of the time.

It was far from perfect but with dealing with so many kids from the streets, there wasn't much time for "touchy-feeley" methods.

As I see todays talent levels, there isn't much need for that type of mentality any longer, but it has it's merits in some situations where a kid just can't seem to keep his head where the sun DOES shine.

As a band director, I find the "death stare" while quietly asking God to grant me the patience to keep me out of prison for beating the living crap out of someone, seems to work if I don't use it too often.

If I do have to yell and scream I try to keep some humor in it so the kids realize it's mostly an act, but at least once a year I tear into them, then ask them to remember "that place" and ask them if they can get to that level of focus and intensity without me yelling.

Theres a big difference between getting them to understand where they are supposed to be mentally as far as being focused, by yelling once in a great while and just yelling at them all the time. Many instructors yell and scream because they don't understand it themselves.

But my favorite form of abuse is asking a student ( who forgot his shoes, music, etc. ) "and did your mommy wipe your hiney when you finished in the bathroom" in a very baby voice. From then on I just whine " MOMMY" when someone comes to me with minor problems and all the kids cringe.

But there sure are some posters on DCP that would be very different if they had experienced the lasting effects of a footprint on their rear end, but we have the moron who came up with "time-out" to blame for that.

[wvu80]

Not at all--I've got no ulterior motives, don't have any angle on singling out any corps in particular. I'm just curious. I know these kids work hard--performing at this level demands that. I'd just like to see how the top-flight groups work to attain and sustain their positions.

I seek understanding...:)

What you have is patience, after being treated so rudely by an adolescent. I stand and applaud your kindness to that poster, sir. It's much better than he deserved.

+++

I think your question is a great one. I've been actively seeking those answers myself for the last couple of years. I've been going to corps practices, asking questions on the discussion boards, and I went to my first camp, the Nov. 07 Bluecoats audition camp. And this Fan Network has been great to see what the "inside" looks like.

I went to Blue Devils practices last season, and I will say they impressed me as being a completely professional group. I saw no yelling, no cursing, just teaching. The musicians seemed to work so hard and hustle, so there was literally no reason for the staff to yell. That staff gets a lot our of their kids with their professionalism.

From my one weekend Bluecoats camp I will say the same thing. Very professional, no yelling, just teaching.

I know that's not living with the corps everyday, but I have heard stories of verbal abuse by other corps. The kids seem to accept that and even defend it because they don't know any other way. I was in a very professional organization and I can guarantee you it doesn't have to be abusive. But you will find some people on here who will argue that abusiveness "builds character" or morale, or some other such nonsense. They just don't know any better.

I've got a potential marching member coming along in the next 2-3 years, if he wants to do that. But I assure you I am keeping my eyes out now, because getting him a positive marching experience is much more important than marching with a "winner" where the staff is abusive because they don't know how to instruct properly.

Edited July 5, 2008 by wvu80

[dbc03]

What you have is patience, after being treated so rudely by an adolescent.

According to his profile that "adolescent" marched in the 70s.

But feel free to make assumptions that only kids are rude on DCP

[CoatsContraDad]

What you have is patience, after being treated so rudely by an adolescent. I stand and applaud your kindness to that poster, sir. It's much better than he deserved.

+++

I think your question is a great one. I've been actively seeking those answers myself for the last couple of years. I've been going to corps practices, asking questions on the discussion boards, and I went to my first camp, the Nov. 07 Bluecoats audition camp. And this Fan Network has been great to see what the "inside" looks like.

I went to Blue Devils practices last season, and I will say they impressed me as being a completely professional group. I saw no yelling, no cursing, just teaching. The musicians seemed to work so hard and hustle, so there was literally no reason for the staff to yell. That staff gets a lot our of their kids with their professionalism.

From my one weekend Bluecoats camp I will say the same thing. Very professional, no yelling, just teaching.

I know that's not living with the corps everyday, but I have heard stories of verbal abuse by other corps. The kids seem to accept that and even defend it because they don't know any other way. I was in a very professional organization and I can guarantee you it doesn't have to be abusive. But you will find some people on here who will argue that abusiveness "builds character" or morale, or some other such nonsense. They just don't know any better.

I've got a potential marching member coming along in the next 2-3 years, if he wants to do that. But I assure you I am keeping my eyes out now, because getting him a positive marching experience is much more important than marching with a "winner" where the staff is abusive because they don't know how to instruct properly.

I appreciate the sentiment, thank you--and thanks to all who've been open enough to post their experiences on here.

I second your focus as a parent on making sure your son gets a positive experience--if there's one thing I've relayed to mine, it's that the bottom line is I want him to enjoy the ride. Kids who do drum corps sacrifice a lot: summers away from friends and family, lost income from not working, the physical pounding that the activity demands...but I really believe what they gain is much more than what they give up.

Edited July 5, 2008 by CoatsContraDad

[dbc03]

I know that's not living with the corps everyday, but I have heard stories of verbal abuse by other corps. The kids seem to accept that and even defend it because they don't know any other way. I was in a very professional organization and I can guarantee you it doesn't have to be abusive. But you will find some people on here who will argue that abusiveness "builds character" or morale, or some other such nonsense. They just don't know any better.

I would argue that there is a difference between yelling and verbal abuse.

I marched a corps that used what I would consider to be verbal abuse quite regularly, but it wasn't The Cadets.

Edited July 6, 2008 by dbc03