pags Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 To be more in-line with the Thread Topic Most Recent score as of July 11th 2007/2008 The Academy 71.05/68.80 (FWIW, they got the 71.05 in 2007 on June 24th, then didn't compete again until July 14th, where they got a 77.35) Blue Devils 86.85/86.05 Blue Knights 79.20/79.05 Blue Stars 75.05/76.90 Bluecoats 84.85/80.25 Boston Crusaders 79.05/78.10 The Cadets 86.60/85.95 Carolina Crown 84.10/82.60 The Cavaliers 86.40/84.45 Colts 77.65/73.60 Crossmen 73.40/72.00 Glassmen 77.30/76.00 Madison Scouts 71.70/72.25 Mandarins 69.50/67.65 Pacific Crest 71.70/72.60 Phantom Regiment 85.9/84.40 Pioneer 65.30/65.05 Santa Clara Vanguard 85.40/82.75 Spirit 75.2/73.70 Troopers 70.65/72.55 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WOOHOO Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 hmmm, everyone was higher but the troopers. Not that that means anything, but weird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pags Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 hmmm, everyone was higher but the troopers. Not that that means anything, but weird. Not quite...Blue Stars, Madison, and Pacific Crest all were lower last year comparatively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Design Hound Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 ...the idea that only 3 groups appear to have the secret formula is absurd, sorry. Constantly Risking Absurdity even??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry S Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 Just wait - by San Antonio, the judges will start to move the corps around. I usually feel that, at this point in the season, scores do not reflect reality. At best, they run on a one or two show lag. If one corps is performing better than another, which is a change from the previous year, it takes a while for the ladies and gentlemen in green to catch on. Also, I think you get more judges that have the b---s to hand out the numbers later in the season. Then, the other judges read the recaps, and its magically alright to distribute credit in a different manner.Just my observation from marching and watching these past 15 years. Yeah this seems reasonable. I've been watching 32 years and when it changed from ticks to the system we have now it slowly evelved into what we get now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scerpella Posted July 12, 2008 Share Posted July 12, 2008 Fair enough. 15 years ago would be 1993. Take a look at the 18 year span from 1973 to 1990. Either Santa Clara, BD, or Garfield won 16 of those years. As pertains to the period from 1973-1990. See above. It seems the "pointlessness" of DCI isn't just a "modern" thing. Given the amount of talent in the 17 years I pointed out, the idea that only 3 groups appear to have had the secret formula was equally "absurd," sorry. Now youre ascribing a viewpoint to me I didnt necessarily express. When I use the particular time frame I used, its because most DCP readers dont have a first hand experience going back more than 15 -20 years. But your attempt to equate old to current does point out flaws in your reasoning. First of all corps were still being judged substantially on execution in the 70's. Precision as as opposed to content, was more easily and objectively discernible by even non drum corps fans who could easily tell musicians playing together, flags executing together and marchers making clean and viewable pictures. Despite execution also being something that can be finessed, a bad flaw filled performance was evident to all and scores could not be so easily snuck past the crowd. You can view videos of the championships just about all the way through the 80's and the champions and top 6 were almost always self evident. Add to that the fact that because of the much higher numbers of corps and the lower number of college music students in the activity, there was a very big difference between 1st and 8th. Anyone could see it. The switch to "build up" then relieved the judges of having to actually quantify their judgments and made it possible to engage in the DCI approved groupthink that goes on until this day. If slotting with tics was challenging then the new system made it effortless. Through the 90's to today the game became even more "rigged" when judges no longer had to worry about performance and started becoming judges of aesthetics, which is to say if you had the design and designer, performance became secondary. You can have 6 corps all performing their shows flawlessly but now judges can still award the championship to one of the big 3 by virtue of considerations that the great unwashed apparently cant see. You throw in the fact that a certain corps continually pushed through rules changes and then becomes primary beneficiary of those changes. Astounding! And thats what is absurd in the normal non DCI world, that in an activity that has reached de facto parity by virtue of the talent that is present all through the activity, the same 3 corps win year in year out. And coincidentally these three corps amazingly occupy a power block. The creation of DCI took the power out of the hands of organizations (VFW, AL, statewide circuits) which didnt necessarily care about the development of the activity. Conversely, neither did they care who won and all one need do is look at results from the VFW and AL championships to see real diversity and the embodiment of the idea that performance does matter. DCI in effect began the downfall of this activity. The first mistake was codifying that a select few winning corps would always have disproportionate influence in guiding the activity, an idea so stupefying its rarely seen in any other competitive endeavour, and when it is, its rife with the same problems. History is often not clear except in retrospect. In a funny way there appears to be an obvious "Intelligent Design" present in drum corps which always seems to guide the trophy year after year to one of three programs. All one need do is to view the many and various preseason polls that are published on DCP. Without anyone having seen a beat of music or marching, most can guess the top 12 with Kreskin like accuracy. It is a validation of the obvious. Drum Corps fans understand who is going to win before they even take the field. As do the paid employees of DCI, the judges. DCI today is indeed pointless. We know it will be one of three corps. We know that Jesus could march in a 4th-8th place corps and they still couldnt crack the championship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbc03 Posted July 12, 2008 Share Posted July 12, 2008 Now youre ascribing a viewpoint to me I didnt necessarily express. When I use the particular time frame I used, its because most DCP readers dont have a first hand experience going back more than 15 -20 years.But your attempt to equate old to current does point out flaws in your reasoning. First of all corps were still being judged substantially on execution in the 70's. Precision as as opposed to content, was more easily and objectively discernible by even non drum corps fans who could easily tell musicians playing together, flags executing together and marchers making clean and viewable pictures. Despite execution also being something that can be finessed, a bad flaw filled performance was evident to all and scores could not be so easily snuck past the crowd. You can view videos of the championships just about all the way through the 80's and the champions and top 6 were almost always self evident. Add to that the fact that because of the much higher numbers of corps and the lower number of college music students in the activity, there was a very big difference between 1st and 8th. Anyone could see it. The switch to "build up" then relieved the judges of having to actually quantify their judgments and made it possible to engage in the DCI approved groupthink that goes on until this day. If slotting with tics was challenging then the new system made it effortless. Through the 90's to today the game became even more "rigged" when judges no longer had to worry about performance and started becoming judges of aesthetics, which is to say if you had the design and designer, performance became secondary. You can have 6 corps all performing their shows flawlessly but now judges can still award the championship to one of the big 3 by virtue of considerations that the great unwashed apparently cant see. You throw in the fact that a certain corps continually pushed through rules changes and then becomes primary beneficiary of those changes. Astounding! And thats what is absurd in the normal non DCI world, that in an activity that has reached de facto parity by virtue of the talent that is present all through the activity, the same 3 corps win year in year out. And coincidentally these three corps amazingly occupy a power block. The creation of DCI took the power out of the hands of organizations (VFW, AL, statewide circuits) which didnt necessarily care about the development of the activity. Conversely, neither did they care who won and all one need do is look at results from the VFW and AL championships to see real diversity and the embodiment of the idea that performance does matter. DCI in effect began the downfall of this activity. The first mistake was codifying that a select few winning corps would always have disproportionate influence in guiding the activity, an idea so stupefying its rarely seen in any other competitive endeavour, and when it is, its rife with the same problems. History is often not clear except in retrospect. In a funny way there appears to be an obvious "Intelligent Design" present in drum corps which always seems to guide the trophy year after year to one of three programs. All one need do is to view the many and various preseason polls that are published on DCP. Without anyone having seen a beat of music or marching, most can guess the top 12 with Kreskin like accuracy. It is a validation of the obvious. Drum Corps fans understand who is going to win before they even take the field. As do the paid employees of DCI, the judges. DCI today is indeed pointless. We know it will be one of three corps. We know that Jesus could march in a 4th-8th place corps and they still couldnt crack the championship. Here is a thought, and it's crazy I know, but when a corps other than those 3 is the best corps maybe that corps will win Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roosevelt Posted July 12, 2008 Share Posted July 12, 2008 hmmm, everyone was higher but the troopers. Not that that means anything, but weird. Not quite...Blue Stars, Madison, and Pacific Crest all were lower last year comparatively. These four corps are a lot better this year than they were last year.... I am sure that has something to do with it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbc03 Posted July 12, 2008 Share Posted July 12, 2008 These four corps are a lot better this year than they were last year.... I am sure that has something to do with it Nope, it's just the judges trying to hide the slotting. The fact that those corps are actually better than they were last year has nothing to do with it. Pure coincidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roosevelt Posted July 12, 2008 Share Posted July 12, 2008 Just wait - by San Antonio, the judges will start to move the corps around. I usually feel that, at this point in the season, scores do not reflect reality. At best, they run on a one or two show lag. If one corps is performing better than another, which is a change from the previous year, it takes a while for the ladies and gentlemen in green to catch on. Also, I think you get more judges that have the b---s to hand out the numbers later in the season. Then, the other judges read the recaps, and its magically alright to distribute credit in a different manner.Just my observation from marching and watching these past 15 years. Great post! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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