Can someone please explain GE to me?

[pags]

But I would like to know why entertainment value for the fans is not factored into the equation. If I understand what you are saying, there is no consideration given in this department.

I can tell you exactly why. If you are going accuse the judges of being biased, then you HAVE to acknowledge the equally large (if not larger) bias of some crowds toward specific corps, and such mass-biases should not factor into the score. As much as some don't like to acknowledge it, there is a large contingent of fans who go to shows not simply hoping to see a good performance, but also to see a specific corps win and/or a specific corps lose. It's not enough that The Cavaliers win, they have to beat Blue Devils, or Phantom, and vice versa. Those biases inject themselves into the cheering (or lack thereof) that a corps receives, regardless of how well they actually perform or hwo well their show is designed. The only way a "crowd reaction" caption can be included in the season and championship scores is if you can reasonably assume that ALL audience members participating are at least trying to fairly and objectively appreciate and critique every corps performance. This, frankly, is an impossibility.

There is a reason why mob rule does not work.

[Keith Laubhan]

I can tell you exactly why. If you are going accuse the judges of being biased, then you HAVE to acknowledge the equally large (if not larger) bias of some crowds toward specific corps, and such mass-biases should not factor into the score. As much as some don't like to acknowledge it, there is a large contingent of fans who go to shows not simply hoping to see a good performance, but also to see a specific corps win and/or a specific corps lose. It's not enough that The Cavaliers win, they have to beat Blue Devils, or Phantom, and vice versa. Those biases inject themselves into the cheering (or lack thereof) that a corps receives, regardless of how well they actually perform or hwo well their show is designed. The only way a "crowd reaction" caption can be included in the season and championship scores is if you can reasonably assume that ALL audience members participating are at least trying to fairly and objectively appreciate and critique every corps performance. This, frankly, is an impossibility.

There is a reason why mob rule does not work.

Exactly, not to mention that there would certainly be the possibility of stagnating the artistic side of the activity.

Often times things that progress an art form aren't appreciated by the masses... at least at the time they're presented.

When you think about it, DCI is in a precarious situation... simultaneiously sanctioning a sport while fostering an art form while entertaining fans, while educating youth. That's a tough bill and they'll never please everyone. That said, I think they do a pretty good job.

[drumcorpsdude03]

There is a reason why mob rule does not work.

It worked pretty well in the Rose Bowl... err, never mind.

[ShortAndFast]

Which leads me to my next question... how do you judge GE? Isn't it subjective? On any given night, could you and I disagree who might win the battle in the GE department? If it is that subjective, doesn't anyone else see where this might cause problems?

Like all the other captions, you read the language on the sheets, decide which box best describes the corps' performance and then assign a numeric score from that box that correctly ranks them relative to the other performing groups.

Sure, you and I might disagree on the application of the GE sheets. We might also disagree on the application of the brass or percussion sheets. Welcome to adjudication by human beings. Doesn't mean the actual DCI judges aren't pretty consistent at getting it right according to the criteria they're supposed to use.

[musicweb]

I think another point that needs to be made is that the judges' sense of general effect is much more nuanced and developed (in general) than the average audience member because they've been doing this for a while (in general). If my mother came to a corps show, she might like the one that played really loud and had guard people that did cartwheels, but judges (and experienced fans/members) (in general) look for more sophisticated effects and how they are portrayed by the performers.

[pags]

It worked pretty well in the Rose Bowl... err, never mind.

yeah, and The Cavaliers only won in 1992 because Finals were in the Midwest....

[IlliniSTi]

General Effect - directly off of DCI's website:

Effect judges are looking at the actual design of the show, the peaks and valleys of excitement throughout, and how the performers make the show successful. Questions a judge might consider in judging effect are: Do all of the elements of visual and musical design reach an effective climax together? Are there a variety of effects in the show that display a wide array of human emotions? Does the pacing of the show vary, remain steady, or have lapses?

It is important to realize that it is not just the designers who control the effect but also the performers who bring the effects to life. The performers may be truly amazing musicians and superb marchers, yet they may have limited show material to work with. Eventually the effect wears thin. To be a good effect judge, one must have a depth of understanding of how shows are put together and how performers can not only interpret the design but also actually elevate its success.

So if we accept these two points:

1) GE is mostly a show design caption

2) The show design, for music at least, stays pretty much the same throughout the season.

How do we see GE score increases of 30-40% from start of the season to the end? I can believe it for visual, where it is not uncommon to rewrite entire sections of shows. But for the most part, 90% of the music stays the same from May until August. I understand that effects become better as the season progresses, the FFF's get louder, the cresendos more dramatic, the impacts are tighter, and there is nothing like the emotion of finals night. But at the same time, has the show design actually gotten that much better by changing less than 10% of the music?

And since design is the area that the performers have the least influence, why is it worth so much?

[BoyWonder1911]

I don't know. I merely copied that off of DCI.org

You'll have to ask them about that.

And no, the show does not stay the same all year. They add things throughout the year, to increase GE scores, didn'tcha know that?

GE scores are influenced also by how well the performers bring their show to life. If they're missing notes, then that will hurt...but then it also hurts in the Music/Performace category too....aye aye aye

Maybe DCI needs to re-evaluate their scoring system. ?

I dont like subjectivity, especially in scoring.

[pags]

So if we accept these two points:

1) GE is mostly a show design caption

2) The show design, for music at least, stays pretty much the same throughout the season.

How do we see GE score increases of 30-40% from start of the season to the end? I can believe it for visual, where it is not uncommon to rewrite entire sections of shows. But for the most part, 90% of the music stays the same from May until August. I understand that effects become better as the season progresses, the FFF's get louder, the cresendos more dramatic, the impacts are tighter, and there is nothing like the emotion of finals night. But at the same time, has the show design actually gotten that much better by changing less than 10% of the music?

And since design is the area that the performers have the least influence, why is it worth so much?

I can understand where you're coming from, but I guess it depends on how you define change. While a great deal of the core music may remain the same, the arranging surrounding that music can alter quite a bit. For example, the some of the transition between core pieces of music in the Blue Devils this year have been altered dramatically. And in their ballad, they have changed a "corporate" moment of the corps playing together into a baritone solo (or a euphonium). The notes the baritone/euph plays are the exact same melody as what had been played before, but the effect created by playing a single instrument that carries a certain kind of sound has a different effect than by playing multiple instruments trying to blend and maintain specific dynamics. Additionally, from a more general perspective, there is something to be said for keeping the same piece of music, but choosing to play it faster/slower, softer/louder, with roller coaster of dynamic range within a musical passage as opposed to playing the entire passage at the same volume.

All of this is change to the "design" while not necessarily altering what notes are played. Basically, it allows for change in content without having to trade out content.

[pags]

I dont like subjectivity, especially in scoring.

I honestly, truly wish you the best of luck in finding a system that won't be subjective in some way. Advances in technology have allowed us to see more and organizations abound for rule and law interpretation, yet if I watch a Cowboys-Eagles game with fans of both teams and a controversial call comes up, I guarantee I will hear VERY different interpretations of the same thing from each side.

If this activity is going to maintain ANY relation to it entertainment aspect, then there will be subjectivity.