Blackstar Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 We complain about judging today. People have even tried to get judged kicked off panels. But what is judging today. What is the criteria. It's one persons opinion on how the group is playing, marching and effective. I repeat, one persons opinion...period. If judge A feels Phantom Regiment convayed (sic) the music in a certain way they score may be higher then Judge B who doesn't feel the same way. Who is right..both are according to todays standards. How can you truly argue with that..you can't by todays standards. Just becuase 3 judges have scored a caption 18.5 the fourth judge can in all rights score them 16.8 and not be wrong. Look at this another way. When I interviewed for a job I was overlooked, as well as every other minority. I was eventually hired because they had to hire a minority and I was the highest placing at 26. I met some of the people hired ahead of me. While they could do the job they were not more quailifed for me. It was a 9-1-1 call taker and I had at the time 15 years of fire service experience and 10 years mgemt. they felt there was nothing wrong because they "took" out personal bias even though the interview process had a personel intereview. Everyone has thier own personal bias even when they don't realize it. Now back in the "olden" days we had ticks. Meaning when you messed up you got a tick. So if you scored a 78 you had 22 mistakes (that they noticed) A judge could day a roll was held too long, bad release etc. Today we can only say I feel, I think, I believe...Thats not judging in my book. I don't know how many other activities judge like this. The Olympics...Boxing....Only marching music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiltieKemo06 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 We complain about judging today. People have even tried to get judged kicked off panels. But what is judging today. What is the criteria. It's one persons opinion on how the group is playing, marching and effective. I repeat, one persons opinion...period. If judge A feels Phantom Regiment convayed (sic) the music in a certain way they score may be higher then Judge B who doesn't feel the same way. Who is right..both are according to todays standards. How can you truly argue with that..you can't by todays standards. Just becuase 3 judges have scored a caption 18.5 the fourth judge can in all rights score them 16.8 and not be wrong. Look at this another way. When I interviewed for a job I was overlooked, as well as every other minority. I was eventually hired because they had to hire a minority and I was the highest placing at 26. I met some of the people hired ahead of me. While they could do the job they were not more quailifed for me. It was a 9-1-1 call taker and I had at the time 15 years of fire service experience and 10 years mgemt. they felt there was nothing wrong because they "took" out personal bias even though the interview process had a personel intereview. Everyone has thier own personal bias even when they don't realize it. Now back in the "olden" days we had ticks. Meaning when you messed up you got a tick. So if you scored a 78 you had 22 mistakes (that they noticed) A judge could day a roll was held too long, bad release etc. Today we can only say I feel, I think, I believe...Thats not judging in my book. I don't know how many other activities judge like this. The Olympics...Boxing....Only marching music. I couldn't say it better. Maybe a combination of the tick system and build up could work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvs me sum mello! Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 But who will people blame for their favorite corps low score? Who? I ask you. WHO?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardguy89 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 (edited) My only problem with this logic is - when I watch DVD's of the top 12 since '84 (when we switched over) I can't truly say that the corps are not ranked where they should be. Sure - every now and then I feel that 1 or 2 corps should be higher or lower - but all in all to say that this judging system doesn't work doesn't fit with I've seen year in and year out. And no - the judging system isn't like any other - and neither is this activity. We're basically judging art. Later, Mike Edited July 28, 2008 by Guardguy89 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corps fan Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 well i believe a tick was .05 of a point, so 22 ticks would be 98.90....but even than bias was possible...could one "overlook" a tick? i'm sure it happened. i would like to point out there are a number of criteria on the judges sheet, both front and back, so it's not just a number picked completely out of the air...that being said, yes the judging system needs to be revised Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TastyWaves Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 The Tick system had its own flaws which were all the worse in my mind. LEss ticks = Higher score right? So if you lower the demand, the almost guaranteed result is fewer mistakes. So then its a battle of who can have the least amount of content. Further, Judges had less to evaluate back then. Back then, (in perc for example), the snareline played, the tenors played less (mostly the snare accents) and the basses had very little technical content or splits like todays bass lines. Front ensemble playing is a whole different set of criteria that was also unheard of. There are many times in todays front ensembles play so many non-unison figures and play such a variety of mallet techniques (Steves, Burton, etc) that there would be no fair way to evaluate it in that system. One of our local band circuits has that problem around here right now. They have 90% drum judges from "Back in the day" mentallity, and the only thing they know how to evaluate is weather a snareline is clean or dirty. so it becomes a battle of snarelines instead of the full ensemble. IVe had full tapes where they dont even bother to go in front of the pit because they dont know what to look for. Snare and quad playing also has a good amount of "Split" nature to it (as opposed to always playing unison figures) and they dont ever understand that either. Not to mention that in the tick system, its also very susceptable to human error. They can only tick the errors they catch. You can watch that "Perfect" cadets drumline (87 i believe) and on the video alone find about 15 noticeable ticks and errors. I think its like the BCS in college football. Certainly has its flaws, but its way better than what was in place before. Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoonHill Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 well i believe a tick was .05 of a point, so 22 ticks would be 98.90....but even than bias was possible...could one "overlook" a tick? i'm sure it happened. i would like to point out there are a number of criteria on the judges sheet, both front and back, so it's not just a number picked completely out of the air...that being said, yes the judging system needs to be revised It's incredibly easy to "overlook" a tick... by happening to be looking in the wrong direction to catch it when it happens. Even under a tick system, judges are just human. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artlady Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 DCI judging reminds me of Figure skating judging. The ones who always score high and win will continue to do so until something so fabulous or mind boggling is done to change it. Hey, lets go to call in votes like American Idol! Whoo boy, would that be a mess or what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerriTroop Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 I want to have this debate, but I honestly think it can't happen until we get to see actual sheets and how they are worded, set up, and utilized. We hear talk about tics vs. build up, but it means nothing until we truly know what "build up" is. FWIW, I don't think the tic system alone works in today's corps environment. I do believe there may be room for a combo of tics (in execution judges) vs. build up (in the more GE oriented subcaptions). It would also help the debate if we knew what criteria for hiring are in place, what training occurs for first-time judges, what re-training is in place and required for long-term judges, how judges are evaluated, and what kind of access corps directors and staff have to judges before their shows are viewed. (For example, do judges give the Pac Crest the same face time they give Blue Knights? Do people even know this happens? I know it used to, don't know about current practices.) Anyway, I do not hold the view that DCI judging is so flawed that we need to scrap it and start over. I think more tweaks would be interesting, but again I don't feel I have enough info to postulate anything with teeth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumno5 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Now back in the "olden" days we had ticks. Yawn... Fred O. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.