luvs me sum mello! Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 Well, since I got ripped for my first comment, I guess I'll go about this a bit more methodically: I mentioned my 16 month old son. Guess what his favorite thing (video/DVD) is to watch? Give up?....... The 1980 27th Lancers!! Guess what his next favorite thing is to watch? Give up again?.... The 1993 Star of Indiana!!!! Goes to show you that "old school," and a show with some DEMAND in it are and SHOULD still be the norm in DCI rather than the exception!! Yes -- I'll say it again... Goes to show you that "old school," and a show with some DEMAND in it are and SHOULD still be the norm in DCI rather than the exception!! Does your son have the option to choose from every DCI finals up through today? Today's shows have far more demand, period. Tempos over 200, drill chart totals exceeding 250, increased demand in playing ability while on the move. DCI of yesteryear had its charm and its system, but to say that shows today have no demand and act like shows 20 years ago did is preposterous. And in response to those who would say the tick system is what made "then" challenging; I agree. The tick system bust have been rough. But MORE rough? It's not like toe hight, intervals, etc. aren't expected of today's corps. Now before I go any further, many of you may remember that I am an avid advocate of bringing back a demand sub caption for at least the music captions. I am at a loss as to why corps who play quarter notes and half notes for 75% of their show (brass books) are being rewarded with 18 plus points in the GE Music and performance captions. It's easy to clean easy brass (and drum) books, so what's the point? Why aren't some of these corps challenging the "students" as Jim Prime did with Star's 1993 (and 1991!) brass book, or Wayne Downey did with BD's 1994 and 1995 brass books?? I know you're using hyperbole (I hope...) but you're way out of line, again. Today's brass and drum books are very demanding. Number of notes does not equal challenging. You see, today, kids are taught how to balance and blend and work on a tone quality that doesn't sound like a dieing donkey. I can play you plenty of fast licks and it not be hard. It's called simple valve combos. combinations of 1st and open (sometimes your only option depending on era) are not comparable to the work that brass members are required to do today. Are the kids marching today any less talented than they were 15 to 20 plus years ago?? Kids today are more talented. Most, if not all, members in today's corps are brought up through their band programs and are already competent musicians before they audition for corps. This was not the case back when. Why? Purposes are different. Back then = after school program to keep kids off the streets. Today = a place you go as a musician to challenge yourself. BOTH eras provided a valuble service. BOTH eras provided members with a once in a lifetime opportunity and experience. Now before the "hammerers" come after me in this forum, I am still a supporter of the activity. However if some of the current direction of the activity continues to go where I think it's going, then my money will be spent elsewhere, and my son will never set foot on a football field as a member of any corps!! Now some questions and comments: 1). DCI -- why are you financially in dire straights?? (Rumor has it after this year you'll be $500,000 in the hole!) You were in a similar position before moving to Indianapolis, and are still paying rent for offices in Illinois where you moved from!! Might I suggest mandatory attendance at a Financial Peace University for all DCI staffers and the entire DCI Board of Directors!! And that's exactly what they are...rumors. 2). Fan attendance is down due to rising gas costs, but more importantly due to ticket prices that are unrealistic!! Again, someone needs to come up with a solution (I've suggested many over the years, so I will not belabor the point here). No, actually it's not. Care to provide any statistics to back this claim up? 3). Your current roster of judges includes many band directors, and they are the ones "nudging" the activity in the direction it has gone from a design standpoint the past 6 years. Although on the surface it may not appear that way, but take any novice fan and drop them in as an audience member at a BOA Superregional, and then at a DCI show and I got $1,000 bucks that says they will be hard-pressed to tell the difference!! The activity used to have a clear distinction between marching band and drum & bugle corps, but that isn;t the case any more! No -- I am not slamming the marching band activity, but the distinction I speak of used to be true!! You're correct. Today's judging positions are held by people in the music education field...what a novel concept. But you're way off to suggest that the judges are the ones nudging the activity. Thanks for the thousand bucks! No difference...ha! 4). Why not be bold, and "nudge" the activity back into it's uniqueness? Pass a rule banning narration and props for a year ot two! Pass a rule stating that color guards have to actually do equipment work for at least 70% of the show time limit that a corps is on the field!! It is unique. No...can you name for me the corps using narration and/or props this year? Whoa whoa whoa whoa.....do not compare doing drop spins for the entire show to the work being done by today's guards. Just....wow... 5). BAN ELECTRONICS!! thumbup.gif Not gonna happen. I bet you a Dublin DP that you have some favorite moments that are amped. 6). Why aren't their "incentives" for marching members who say with a corps for 3 plus consecutive years?? The average length of time a young person marches with a corps has gone from 5.2 years in 1992 to 2.2 years in 2006. yes -- the cost of marching may have something to do with it, thus the suggestion on incentives! There are incentives. Corps offer lower dues for one. And I know it's been asked, but where did you get your stats? In closing let me say that my intention to open up a preverbial "can of worms" by posting is on purpose and fully intentional!! Those of us who have loved, lived, and supported this activity for decades are witnessing the slow death of the activity whether we want to see it or not! It's high time that we make our voices heard so the "powers that be" quit acting like the U.S. Congress (doing very little or nothing) and start taking action! The whole "drum corps is dieing" thing has been rattled off for decades. DCI is doing fine. What are you doing in terms of "action?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 Kids today are more talented. Most, if not all, members in today's corps are brought up through their band programs and are already competent musicians before they audition for corps. This was not the case back when. Why? Purposes are different. Back then = after school program to keep kids off the streets. Today = a place you go as a musician to challenge yourself. BOTH eras provided a valuble service. BOTH eras provided members with a once in a lifetime opportunity and experience. I'd say that todays level of talent is higher because there are less performers than before. To illustrate: the level of the top 2-3K performers would be more talented than the top 20-30K. Today is more like an "All Star team" level due to less bodies being used. I went to HS in the 70s (started around DCIs first year) and there was already a full band program in the schools in my area. Only difference between then and now is more bands competing (and more band members getting burnt out because of it). Not sure what, if any, '70s corps had to teach music to potential members. The whole "drum corps is dieing" thing has been rattled off for decades. DCI is doing fine After 35 seasons of following corps, I realize that things go in cycles. But IMO currently DC is at the start of a bad downward swing due to the economy and (especially) expenses with gas, food, etc. It's easy to look at the top corps and say things are great. But I judge DC health by how the lesser corps are doing and if any new corps are being created to replace those that are gone. That does not look good for the Junior corps activity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bari-Player Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 Here I come to stir the pot.... I've seen shows from the 50s-70s, on Video. I would estimate that you could take any top 12 corps from modern day and teach an entire show from back in the day in a weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 (edited) Here I come to stir the pot....I've seen shows from the 50s-70s, on Video. I would estimate that you could take any top 12 corps from modern day and teach an entire show from back in the day in a weekend. Well I saw two Cadets learn our drill between DCI and DCA Finals in 1985 (another rebuilding year). One staff member had friends at Garfield and we had some holes to fill in the horn line. Low and behold, these two skinny sop players showed up and had drill down by Sunday afternoon...... Probably the only time they ever marched Prelims and didn't make Finals. Wish I knew what their names were. Seemed like nice guys but looked scared to death learning a drill around us maniacs. And being with a corps that was more concerned about survival instead of winning HAD to have been a big cultural shock. Edit: Just checked corpsreps and see Cadets won in 1985 and Westshoremen are listed as 12th at DCA Finals. 11th and 12th were exhibitions at DCA so the two Cadets did perform but not compete. Bad memory... bad memory... Edited August 1, 2008 by JimF-3rdBari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSnareline Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 (edited) Good grief, what is it with drum guys? I think they are just striking out at the world for having to wear the Vic Firth team jerseys to the Headquarters party after Semifinals. Hard to work it with that cute guard instructor when you are wearing the same shirt as 100 other dudes, having forgotten to take off your staff pass from 2 hours earlier. Have fun discussing the minutia of tap heights during a left lead triple ratamacue invert-a-diddle blah blah blah while the rest of us are hanging out having fun. (Ok maybe a little #### talking between all of us, but I am not calling anyone a punk on a web forum. ) I really, really hate to admit it but you've got drummers down cold. That was some funny stuff right there! I never had a hard time with the guard girls though. Maybe cause I used ProMark? Edited August 1, 2008 by BigSnareline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancerlady Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 (edited) {quote]Are the kids marching today any less talented than they were 15 to 20 plus years ago?? Kids today are more talented. Most, if not all, members in today's corps are brought up through their band programs and are already competent musicians before they audition for corps. This was not the case back when. Why? Purposes are different. Back then = after school program to keep kids off the streets. Today = a place you go as a musician to challenge yourself. BOTH eras provided a valuble service. BOTH eras provided members with a once in a lifetime opportunity and experience. Now before the "hammerers" come after me in this forum, I am still a supporter of the activity. However if some of the current direction of the activity continues to go where I think it's going, then my money will be spent elsewhere, and my son will never set foot on a football field as a member of any corps!! This is not a completely true statement. I am not going to hammer you but I will say to some extent and some areas they may be more talented because that is the pool of kids the activity is geared towards these days. I do agree with you about the purpose has changed! However, there were LOTS Of music majors in the 80's who were being drafted to play. I was a music major and I was still learning. BUT, I actually had instructors who actually helped me become a better player and marcher instead of just showing up to do warm up exercises and wait for already made players to show up. I was brought up in a very competent band program and as a matter of fact my band director had dci parties and introduced me to DCI this way. Yes his agenda was for me to march Spirit but I chose a different path. Edited August 1, 2008 by Lancerlady Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victorcoly Posted August 1, 2008 Author Share Posted August 1, 2008 Hey mello... I did not "rip" you personally as I was by others. I will address some of your comments, so we BOTH have a better understanding of things if we can: Does your son have the option to choose from every DCI finals up through today? I own vidoes/DVD's that show the years from 1978 through 2006. And we watch ALL of them regularly! Not sure why my son has gravitated towards 1980 27th & 1993 Star but he has! In fact, we (my wife and I) like watching the 2006 finals DVD, but when we watch that one, he'll watch it for 30 seconds (any corps), and then go about playing with his blocks and other toys. Today's shows have far more demand, period. Tempos over 200, drill chart totals exceeding 250, increased demand in playing ability while on the move. DCI of yesteryear had its charm and its system, but to say that shows today have no demand and act like shows 20 years ago did is preposterous. And in response to those who would say the tick system is what made "then" challenging; I agree. The tick system bust have been rough. But MORE rough? It's not like toe hight, intervals, etc. aren't expected of today's corps. While I am approaching the "demand" discussion from a percussionist standpoint, you and I can go back-n-forth all day long, but much of the musical demand of 10 to 15 years ago is all but gone in many cases. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that. Visually, though, I agree -- TONS more demand today. I know you're using hyperbole (I hope...) but you're way out of line, again. Today's brass and drum books are very demanding. Number of notes does not equal challenging. You see, today, kids are taught how to balance and blend and work on a tone quality that doesn't sound like a dieing donkey. I can play you plenty of fast licks and it not be hard. It's called simple valve combos. combinations of 1st and open (sometimes your only option depending on era) are not comparable to the work that brass members are required to do today. Again -- we'll have to agree to disagree. Especially regarding the percussion books. Listen intently to drum books, specifically battery sections, from 1982 up through today and you'll hear the difference. Flams and singles ain't the same, and much of the "meat" from battery parts is an exception these days in many cases. Yes -- there may be 30 second to one minute "beefy" parts today, but if you listen to past years, a sizeable portion of a vast majority of battery sections played their lugs off!! Kids today are more talented. Most, if not all, members in today's corps are brought up through their band programs and are already competent musicians before they audition for corps. This was not the case back when. Why? Purposes are different. Back then = after school program to keep kids off the streets. Today = a place you go as a musician to challenge yourself. BOTH eras provided a valuble service. BOTH eras provided members with a once in a lifetime opportunity and experience. Since you put it that way -- I happen to agree!!! 1). DCI -- why are you financially in dire straights?? (Rumor has it after this year you'll be $500,000 in the hole!) You were in a similar position before moving to Indianapolis, and are still paying rent for offices in Illinois where you moved from!! Might I suggest mandatory attendance at a Financial Peace University for all DCI staffers and the entire DCI Board of Directors!! And that's exactly what they are...rumors. Yep -- but their books are a matter of public record, so do some "research" and you'll see! 2). Fan attendance is down due to rising gas costs, but more importantly due to ticket prices that are unrealistic!! Again, someone needs to come up with a solution (I've suggested many over the years, so I will not belabor the point here). No, actually it's not. Care to provide any statistics to back this claim up? I've talked to several show sponsors over the past 3 years, and ALL of them site a decrease in attendance. Plus DCI finals used to average 28,000 plus fans, and for a good string of years averaged 30,000 plus. Not the case anymore! Plus some "regular" competitions that used to be held every year are no longer held. You're correct. Today's judging positions are held by people in the music education field...what a novel concept. But you're way off to suggest that the judges are the ones nudging the activity. Thanks for the thousand bucks! No difference...ha! I you re-read my OP, "nudge" was n quotes. And one judges are suggesting things in critiques 4 and 5 years ago that are not occurring, it is obvious!!!! It is unique. No...can you name for me the corps using narration and/or props this year? Whoa whoa whoa whoa.....do not compare doing drop spins for the entire show to the work being done by today's guards. Just....wow... Watch some of the guards, like Cavies, Crown, Cadets, and BD from 1995 to 2004. Then tell me I am comparing "drop spins." Again -- you're "translation" of my comments leaves much to be desired!!! Not gonna happen. I bet you a Dublin DP that you have some favorite moments that are amped. Actually I do have some favorite amped moments! Bluecoats "drum speak" comes to mind. if most corps did stuff like that, I wouldnt have to much of a problem with narration!!! There are incentives. Corps offer lower dues for one. And I know it's been asked, but where did you get your stats? Yep -- I agree again, but there still needs to be a bit more "outside the box" thinking!! The whole "drum corps is dieing" thing has been rattled off for decades. DCI is doing fine. What are you doing in terms of "action?" When did I say it was "dying?" My issues are the direction, or lack thereof, to propagate it! The creation of more divisions was a good idea, but when the number of corps dwindles, then some divisions will have little or no reason for existence! Pardon the sports comparison, but the NBA takes steps to make their "activity" equitable by having certain policies and things in place so teams will succeed. NO I am not suggesting "salary caps", etc, but a more active role by DCI other then being a "promotional" entity each summer would help a little. As for what I am doing..... I've emailed, called, etc Mr. Acheson over the years as well as tlaked to others. As stated in a previous post, I've also written some checks! How about you?? Glad you are sharing your views! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageJoe Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 Good grief, what is it with drum guys? I think they are just striking out at the world for having to wear the Vic Firth team jerseys to the Headquarters party after Semifinals. Hard to work it with that cute guard instructor when you are wearing the same shirt as 100 other dudes, having forgotten to take off your staff pass from 2 hours earlier. Have fun discussing the minutia of tap heights during a left lead triple ratamacue invert-a-diddle blah blah blah while the rest of us are hanging out having fun. (Ok maybe a little #### talking between all of us, but I am not calling anyone a punk on a web forum. ) WOW. That is the funniest thing i have read in awhile. SO TRUE! The best part of that whole scene is Vic Firth siting in the corner of the room trying to avoid having to talk to these guys wearing his name on their chests. A sociology class could go wild with this hang. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageJoe Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 I really, really hate to admit it but you've got drummers down cold. That was some funny stuff right there! I never had a hard time with the guard girls though. Maybe cause I used ProMark? It's all about the gong mallet............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victorcoly Posted August 1, 2008 Author Share Posted August 1, 2008 Some might be amused who found Victor his first job teaching high school bands. :)Hi, Vic! Some guy who used to march with the Cavaliers walked up to me after semi-finals in '86! Wonder whi that was?? Hey Mike.. Guess what?? After this coming school year, Randy Heidlebaugh is retiring!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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