Let's talk horns

[kickhaltsforlife]

Baritones in Surf use the same size mouthpiece as the standard expectation (6 1/2 AL)

That explains a lot actually... hope they learned their lesson.

[kickhaltsforlife]

I don't think the horn makes the hornline. From personal experience and from my speaking with many BD members....Dynasty are some of the junkiest horns around yet they win MANY brass titles.

Yup... I agree with the whole statement...

I honestly don't think the brand makes all that much of a difference. It's all about mouthpeice and playing philosophy. Look at Crown, Cadets, and Cavies. All using the same horns (Yamaha), but completely different playing styles, and they sound completely different. BD and Cadets sound more similar and they're using a completely different horn manufacturer (but a similiar playing philosophy).

BINGO!

One thing I will say though, hearing Crown from 06 to 07 when they went from Kings to Yamaha, I liked their sound better in 06. (I'm not talking about how clean they played, or how clean their sound was at all time... that wasn't affected by the horns..)

I feel like the Kings are just darker all around.

From personal playing experience, Dynasty= awful. Yamaha=cheap horns that if made better could be awesome, they play overall pretty good. King=great horns, still has it's issues... but great horns.

and my experience is with baris and euphs.

and this is how I thought they played.... this is with my personal playing style and preferences.

Do I believe any manufacture has an advantage, no.. it's about how the hornline is taught, and how they play together. Boston, Phantom, Spirit, Blue Stars, all used Kings last year.. all sounded completely different. Glassmen, BD both use Dynasty, both sound nothing the same, alll the Yamaha lines same thing... someone said all this above I'm just restating it...

It really doesn't matter what horns you choose... personally if I had to make a choice, I would want to play the horn that plays the best for the individual. In bari/euph land, I believe a majority would say Kings. (They do have that weird area in the lower range). Yamaha's aren't a bad horn though, and a bit more affordable... if I were a band director and got to choose a brass line for my marching band, they would be Yamaha's at this point. Best deal. Dynastys are out of the question.

Jupiter.. no personal experience, only 20 billion gagilion different opinions on the new quantum horns.

[PhantomRPhan]

I'm not a big fan of the King tubas. Unbalanced like no other, but it did feel comfortable in the hands. Not so much in the overall handling. The Yamahas are just about right, though it does have problems itself. Such as no real good place to hold with the left hand without some hyperflexion.

Just from my highly limited experience.

[kickhaltsforlife]

Yamaha wins on making thing comfortable to hold... by far... King still needs to work out that balance issue, Dynasty just has to strip something off of those hunks of junk.

Sorry if I offend anyone who likes Dynastys... it's just that any Dynasty horn I have played I've hated... and the Dynastys I have played on the most were used by BD...

I give them a lot of credit for what they do... you know for a fact that they are talented players (I still hate their sound sometimes )

EDIT:

I can get a good sound out of the Dynasty, it just takes a little extra effort.

But playing on the same horn all summer also kind of negates any horn manufacture being the better sounding horn, if you aren't making good sounds out of a student model at the end of the season, then you've got a problem.

Edited March 8, 2009 by kickhaltsforlife

[Penn State]

High Brass award: 1st -Blue Devils, Dynasty

2nd Phantom, King Marching Brass

3rd Crown, Yamaha

4th Cavaliers, Yamaha (2008 horns for sale)

5th Cadets, Yamaha

6th Bluecoats Yamaha (horns now on sale)

7th SCV Yamaha

8th Blue Stars, King

Academy - Jupiter Marching Brass

+++

It is fascinating that 5 of the top 8 corps in DCI are Yamaha corps.

Can you separate a discussion about horns from the corps who use them?

Yes, at least I like to think so

Does a certain brand really bring a competitive advantage?

Each line is unique and offers advantages in different voices over their competition. I will discuss the instruments that I have personally played on and what I feel I have enough feedback on to comment. I will make it clear when I am speaking of my personal experience as opposed to others. References will be provided for any product opinion from other musicians when possible.

Yamaha:

-To the extent of my knowledge Yamaha is the only manufacturer that offers a professional trumpet in its marching brass line up. The company offers various options to allow the corps to choose the Xeno model that facilitates their vision of the soprano voice.

-The YMP-204 mellophone out performs the competition by at least a mile. Very smooth valve action, I consider near professional quality, if not professional quality. The scale on this horn is even, a thumb saddle on the first valve slide is a useful feature. The horn is free blowing and produces a warm alto voice tone when paired with a deep V cup mouthpiece such as a Blessing mello 5. Chris Nalls considers the 204 to be a near professional instrument (www.mellocast.com Episode #75). I own a Yamaha 204 and regularly play it with a Blessing mello 5, a true alto voice mouthpiece. A heavier mouthpiece, such as the Blessing 5 or IYM, helps balance out the horn as this model is slightly bell heavy. For more information on the YMP-204 please see: http://www.middlehornleader.com/Yamaha%20YMP204.htm

www.mellocast.com Episode #9

- The Yamaha YBH-301 marching baritone is a very unique horn as it has a significantly larger bore size in comparison to the competition. A large quantity of air is vital in making this horn speak well. Valve action is smooth but the stroke distance is slightly longer than what one may consider normal. I feel this model is very rewarding for the highly skilled, experienced musician. I own a Yamaha and play it regularly with a Bach 5G mouthpiece.

-The Yamaha YEP-202 marching only euphonium is an excellent horn. It shares its valve casing and .571” bore size with the marching baritone; however it has a wrap which is more open than the baritone complimented with a larger bell tale. I feel this horn tends to play slightly flat but is not difficult to pull into tune (key is more air). Surprisingly, this horn blends well with the concert style euphonium. I own a Yamaha YEP-202 and play it when I have the time with a Bach 5G mouthpiece.

-The Yamaha YBB-202 marching only tuba has gained an excellent reputation with the Yamaha corps members I marched with in Blue Band. I have not been able to track one done yet to test play (if anyone can assist me in this please let me know, I would really appreciate it!!!). The horn is considered well balance in the carry and playing position with multiple places for a player to find a comfortable grip. One very unique and impressive quality of this horn is that it has a professional grade bell. JTS5032, could you add any more about the 202?

Dynasty

-The M541 Mellophone is simply the best Dynasty Mellophone I have ever played. I play tested the M541 with a custom mello 6 mouthpiece which is owned by a friend. This horn features sturdy construction with good valve action. It is very well balanced and comfortable to be held in the playing and carry position. Intonation is relatively even but has a brighter tone than I personally care for. The horn play tested is owned by East Stroudsburg University of Pennsylvania Warrior marching band. For more information on the Dynasty M541 mellophone please see: http://www.middlehornleader.com/Dynasty%20...MT%20Review.htm

-The Dynasty M570 marching baritone is an excellent horn. This horn is light weight, balanced, even intonation, and free blowing; perfect for the beginning marcher and yet good enough to keep a seasoned musician satisfied. This is my favorite Dynasty horn I have played. So good, as a matter of fact, even though I own a Yamaha YBH-301, I still would love to own this horn! I played this horn with the East Stroudsburg University of Pennsylvania Warrior marching band. I utilized a Dynasty 6 ½ A small shank mouthpiece.

-The Dynasty M875 marching only tuba is large for a 4/4 sized tuba. Many consider the 4th valve to be an invaluable feature. Personally, I could have done without the extra weight. The balance of this horn is somewhat front heavy and is not very comfortable to hold in the carry position. An annoying but not critical issue with this horn was the tendency for the ‘mother of pearl’ fingers buttons to easily fall off. Overall this horn had a tendency to play flat. Mouthpiece choice for me on this instrument is a Bach gold plate 24AW mega-tone mouthpiece. The smaller mouthpiece made it easier to bring the horn into tune as compared to those with larger mouthpiece preferences. In spite of its flaws this is a solid horn, worthy of being performed on in any brass ensemble setting. I do not own this horn but have performed on it in the DCA venue.

King:

-The King 1121 mellophone: please see: http://www.middlehornleader.com/King%201121%20Review.htm

www.mellocast.com Episode #8

-The King 1127 marching baritone was a huge disappointment to me when I played tested it. Intonation was not a huge concern; however I found the 1124 to be very stuffy with the valve cluster uncomfortably distant from the mouthpiece. During the play test I was able to utilize the following mouthpieces: Bach 6 1/2A, 5G, and 1G. I had slightly better results with the larger mouthpieces but the horn still felt extremely stuffy and unresponsive. I play tested this horn at an authorized Conn-Selmer dealer.

Quantum:

-The Quantum mellophone: please see: http://www.middlehornleader.com/Jupiter%20...tum%205050S.htm

www.mellocast.com Episode #39

In summary:

I feel the Yamaha brass line offers the best overall product. The alto and soprano voices truly are the best in the market. While it can be argued who has the best low brass voices, the quality of the Yamaha low brass is nothing to laugh at. The Dynasty line comes in at second with a strong low brass and respectable upper brass. I do feel as Jupiter works the quirks out of the Quantum line Dynasty may find its product line surpassed. I know the least about the King and Quantum lines, yet feel confident enough to predict that Jupiter will continue to develop and improve the Quantum line. At this time I do not foresee any immediate product re-evaluation and development by King which I find disappointing.

How does the new Jupiter brass sound? Was it up to DCI standards for durability and quality?

I have not been able to play the Jupiter marching brass; however I recently played a Jupiter BBb concert tuba. It played very well with a very nice, warm tone with minimal back pressure. The valve action is smooth and quick. I was pleasantly surprised with the quality of this instrument! http://www.jupitermusic.com/jbi_instrument...d=1&pId=166

As a side note, I felt Jersey Surf had an excellent performance on the Quantum horns at DCI East. Based on that performance alone I feel the Quantum line should be given serious consideration.

I saw several corps using very large mouthpieces. Comments on MP's?

As I have matured I have come to the realization that there is no such thing as a ‘magic mouthpiece’. I am a firm believer that a musician should utilize the mouthpiece that best works with their embouchure. In some instances, such as a bell heavy mellophone, a large or heavy weight mouthpiece will help balance out the horn in the hands of the musician.

Would you buy a used brass instrument from a drum corps?

I have and probably will again. I purchased a Yamaha marching euphonium from Crown last fall. It plays well and is in very good condition for a two year old drum corps horn. There was a bit more platting wear on the third valve and the last crook before the bell tale. Thankfully no pitting. I figure the wear in the high contact areas was accelerated by excessive polishing with an abrasive polish.

Please note that mellocast episode #78 is now posted, interview with John Meehan, Brass Caption Head for the Blue Devils. www.mellocst.com

Edited March 8, 2009 by Penn State

[Dave]

Did you ever actually HEAR a good G line? Early 80's Devils or Madison? When will people ever realize that maybe those of who were around then actually KNOW WHAT WE'RE TALKING BAOUT?

Yes, I have, quite a few. And I'm afraid the reality continues to be that the key of G holds no magical volume-related properties. What you do see is a shift in the pedagogical efforts of junior corps horn instruction, and the result is better musicianship overall. I stand by my statement.

[CoHmempho04]

and

SSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHH. You might upset some of the New Age Newbie Bflat people, most of who were still crawling around in diapers or not even in existence when G's were the big thing. They only know about G's from watching older tapes and dvd's. You can only really appreciate a good G line by hearing one IN PERSON............

For one... DCI made the switch to Bflat in 2000... I hope no one on this forum was in diapers in 2000.

I'm 22 and I've played in a G hornline in 2007 and 2008 and didn't play a Bflat from when I first played that G horn until we switched to our brand new King Ultimate Brass Hornline this year. From what I can tell from playing a baritone is that when the sound comes from a G it comes out like one of those Chinese fans and Bflats have more of a solid line feel once they exit the bell if that makes any sense. As to which I prefer... not sure yet.

Are you talking about the corpvets? If so, then yeah there is a noticeable difference. They were really putting out some sound this year. Do they still play on G's?

Thank You and yes we switched to King Ultimate Brass for the 2009 and upcoming seasons. It's also why I'm up at 5am so I can work a fundraiser...

[drumno5]

Why? I can't imagine playing on such a small mouthpiece in drum corps.

But don't leave it open ended like that - c'mon, share with us. What would you recommend on a baritone?

Fred O.

[drumno5]

and

SSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHH. You might upset some of the New Age Newbie Bflat people, most of who were still crawling around in diapers or not even in existence when G's were the big thing. They only know about G's from watching older tapes and dvd's. You can only really appreciate a good G line by hearing one IN PERSON............

Yeah, OK. But why the smug, condescending, we-were-there-so-we-know-better-listen-sonny-when-you've-been-around-as-long-as-I-have attitude - is that really necessary? And what's with all the SHOUTING coming from the G bugle camp? Relax, guys, it's only drum corps...

Fred O.

Edited March 8, 2009 by drumno5

[Penn State]

Yup... I agree with the whole statement...

BINGO!

One thing I will say though, hearing Crown from 06 to 07 when they went from Kings to Yamaha, I liked their sound better in 06. (I'm not talking about how clean they played, or how clean their sound was at all time... that wasn't affected by the horns..)

I feel like the Kings are just darker all around.

From personal playing experience, Dynasty= awful. Yamaha=cheap horns that if made better could be awesome, they play overall pretty good. King=great horns, still has it's issues... but great horns.

and my experience is with baris and euphs.

and this is how I thought they played.... this is with my personal playing style and preferences.

Do I believe any manufacture has an advantage, no.. it's about how the hornline is taught, and how they play together. Boston, Phantom, Spirit, Blue Stars, all used Kings last year.. all sounded completely different. Glassmen, BD both use Dynasty, both sound nothing the same, alll the Yamaha lines same thing... someone said all this above I'm just restating it...

It really doesn't matter what horns you choose... personally if I had to make a choice, I would want to play the horn that plays the best for the individual. In bari/euph land, I believe a majority would say Kings. (They do have that weird area in the lower range). Yamaha's aren't a bad horn though, and a bit more affordable... if I were a band director and got to choose a brass line for my marching band, they would be Yamaha's at this point. Best deal. Dynastys are out of the question.

Jupiter.. no personal experience, only 20 billion gagilion different opinions on the new quantum horns.

Kickhaltsforlife, Would you mind going into a little more detail about the short falls of the Yamaha low brass? Personally for me I find the stroke length for the valves is too long (I don't have very large hands) but I haven't had any issues other than that. Of course, I haven't used my equipment on the competitve field either so I do not feel qualified to comment on durability. I would like to know what your experience with theYamaha brass line has been like.