How many DCI titles would Star have if they were still around?

[cowtown]

GM - I don't disagree w/ you take at all and can see that now but really, when I saw it live, I was in the WTF crowd. I felt insulted and angry, hated the show – and received it as a big FU. I saw it a bunch, at least 6 times and during finals week, I was breaking it down to figure out how it scored so well, which I did figure out at the time but I still didn’t and don’t like it

Not my cup of tea and not what I want out of my d/corps

[GMichael1230]

GM - I don't disagree w/ you take at all and can see that now but really, when I saw it live, I was in the WTF crowd. I felt insulted and angry, hated the show – and received it as a big FU. I saw it a bunch, at least 6 times and during finals week, I was breaking it down to figure out how it scored so well, which I did figure out at the time but I still didn’t and don’t like it

Not my cup of tea and not what I want out of my d/corps

Its ok, and I dont feel you deserve the harsh criticism that you are getting either. Not every show is for everybody, it certainly wasnt my favorite of the night but it did do its job, it provoked, it drew me in, it made me shake my head, forget where I was and you cant deny the absolute brilliance in regards to both design and talent.

Geoffrey

[morganhill]

I would guess the Cadets and BD would only have half the DCI titles they now each posess if Star was still active. A real loss to the activity.

[ouooga]

I would guess the Cadets and BD would only have half the DCI titles they now each posess if Star was still active. A real loss to the activity.

But do you think Star would have won the others, or would they just have been split up among other corps more?

Here's the real question....which corps were affected the most by Star leaving? Which corps got most of their members? Which corps got their staff? Which corps moved up in placement without Star?

It's still speculation, but at least something we have a little more evidence to back stuff up with.

[mfrontz]

One of the more interesting ideas laid down in the early years was the concept of a 'chameleon corps'. Unlike every other drum corps at the time, the personality of the corps was not going to be defined by a given style or genre of music, even uniform. Now of course there were limits such as the design staff's comfort zones, or even taste, but overall the corps personality was to be defined by excellence in how it performed, not what it performed.

This 'reinventing the wheel' yearly concept is not without it's pitfalls. Of course it is challenging to the membership, but also to the fans. Everyone has their favorite type of music or visual production, and base who they support on their expectation of what they will receive. But there would be guarantee of what to expect from Star from year to year, save a quality of approach. Actually I see more and more of this concept in many of today's top corps and I think it is great.

I wonder if this is part of why Star never got the love from the fans, especially after an incredible 1990 year. It seems as if there is part of us who cheers for the uniform of our "favorite" corps no matter their technical excellence. Madison is a case in point. Even after years of substandard performances you could always count on Madison having their identity as a rock-em-sock-em corps and people respond to that. If Star had worked on developing an "identity," maybe you would have had people saying, "OMG, Walton and Holst in 1998 - I LOVE when they go back to their roots!"

But since Star never wore the same uni more than twice after 88, and never developed a signature "style," no identity development, and no fan base. It was always "you are soulless robots playing drum corps." Was this true? Of course not, the kids were kids just like all the others. But corps gain an identity over time, unless you go out of your way not to develop one.

[kstein]

But corps gain an identity over time, unless you go out of your way not to develop one.

I think that's kind of an amusing statement coming from a Crossmen alum. I've been a fan of the corps since the late 70's and have had many friends who have marched there, but I can't think of another corps (oh, wait: Spirit) who has been struggling to find and own an identity for as long as the Crossmen have. Every time they seem to get it right and return to what old timers like me think of as their "roots", they go off and do something "odd" again.

And Star did go out of their way to develop a style based on consistent musical and marching excellence, but spread across many genres. This was a deliberate move back as far as the day when the corps name was decided. By not putting a color or a strong stylistic word (think "Regiment") in their name, the feeling was they could change at will, or as Mike accurately described earlier be a true chameleon corps.

Cheers!

Karen

[mad_scotty]

Here's another thing to think about (since we're playing "what if"):

If Star had no plans to leave DCI for the CB thing after '93, would they have programmed that show the same way? Star folks have admitted that the '93 programming was purposely done as sort of a "well, let's see what they think of this" send-off, so I wonder if it weren't thought of as a "send-off" by the design staff, would we even have that show to talk about now. Then how different would DCI history to now have been???

that isn't true at all. they were looking at possibly leaving, but they were also planning a 94 show in case they decided to stay-rite of spring. all but the most senior staff were assuming that was the 94 plan, to do rite of spring as a drum corps.

as far as recruiting goes, i think it wouldn't have mattered, because star never had very much talent in the hornline anyways. they were the best trained corps, not the most talented, in that era most of the top talent was going to bd, scv, madison and phantom on brass, scv cadets and cavies on percussion, and cadets and cavies and bd on guard.

as far as the staff i think the biggest repercussion of stars staff moving around after 93 is todd ryans switch to the blue devils. he was with madison from 78 to 88 as a member and instructor, went to star and their level of marching execution immediately shot through the roof (compare 88 and before with 89-93 in visual execution), and he went to the blue devils starting in 94 and they have been a great marching corps (and title contender on the basis of visual and music, not just music) ever since. i mean, look at the line here, he taught the 88 scouts marching, went to star and taught the 89, 91 and 93 corps marching, and went to devs and they suddenly pull out the 94 visual package. everywhere he went the corps was the best marching group in dci, or very close. he hit the devs and made them consistently a top 3 marching corps right when dci was making the shift from hornline first to marching first in judging overall show quality. one of the most important and game changing staff pickups in dci history.

[kfreak24]

basically, a bajillion.

[Liam]

that isn't true at all. they were looking at possibly leaving, but they were also planning a 94 show in case they decided to stay-rite of spring. all but the most senior staff were assuming that was the 94 plan, to do rite of spring as a drum corps.

I was referring to this (from Bill Cook's Recollections)

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JIM MASON'S PSYCHE IN 1992

For Jim, 1992 was a pivotal year because the show was designed for a broad audience appeal and the result was a hostile crowd. At that time, he decided to explore different directions. His frustrations led him to the 1993 Medea program because he wanted to give the organization a vehicle where they would be in control of their performance from beginning to end.

Looking back at Medea, there were no opportunities for the audience to react until the show was over. This concept made some of the audience uncomfortable and created even more controversy. I guess that was Jim's vengeance. Also at that time, he began to contemplate doing something other than drum corps with the Star of Indiana. Perhaps the seed of Brass Theater was planted during this period.

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So I didn't remember it exactly right, but my point was that the '93 show was in some ways reflective of the feeling that Star may be moving on, so in the context of this thread I was suggesting that if Star had absolutely no plans to move beyond DCI, the '93 show could have had a different approach and then how would that have affected the path that many DCI corps took subsequently -- you change one variable in history and others may change as well, that's all.

Thanks for correcting me and making me look it up to clear up my muddled memory!!!

[ouooga]

I was referring to this (from Bill Cook's Recollections)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JIM MASON'S PSYCHE IN 1992

For Jim, 1992 was a pivotal year because the show was designed for a broad audience appeal and the result was a hostile crowd. At that time, he decided to explore different directions. His frustrations led him to the 1993 Medea program because he wanted to give the organization a vehicle where they would be in control of their performance from beginning to end.

Looking back at Medea, there were no opportunities for the audience to react until the show was over. This concept made some of the audience uncomfortable and created even more controversy. I guess that was Jim's vengeance. Also at that time, he began to contemplate doing something other than drum corps with the Star of Indiana. Perhaps the seed of Brass Theater was planted during this period.

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So I didn't remember it exactly right, but my point was that the '93 show was in some ways reflective of the feeling that Star may be moving on, so in the context of this thread I was suggesting that if Star had absolutely no plans to move beyond DCI, the '93 show could have had a different approach and then how would that have affected the path that many DCI corps took subsequently -- you change one variable in history and others may change as well, that's all.

Thanks for correcting me and making me look it up to clear up my muddled memory!!!

So had Star won in 92, or at least received a better crowd response, do you think there would have been a 94 show? Or would Medea have followed a more traditional drum corps formula?