Stick Grip

[pearlsnaredrummer77]

But doesn't that now put the two contact points about an inch or so apart? I guess I'm not really understanding. Doesn't the fulcrum (pinch) point need to be right at the same point on the stick?

Well if you keep the index finger on the stick, but use the middle finger as the control finger, the index finger does do some balance work on the fulcrum. But it's not the one actually articulating-you know the sections where you pinch/tighten your grip. So in that sense the index finger is merely a helper. Now you mentioned earlier some lines were completely leaving the index finger off the stick. In that case, I would suspect that you would have to move the placement of the middle finger so that it's directly on the fulcrum.

[drumphd]

I think the grip being referred to in this topic is a modern hybrid based on the technique taught by Sanford Moeller. SCV under Murray Gusseck has used a Moeller-esque approach in recent years. The index finger being less involved comes from Moeller's rudimental technique in which the grip was very relaxed (especially compared to some of today's techniques.) Here is a photo from the Moeller book showing the right hand grip:

http://www.digbydoodle.com/MOELLER/vintage1.jpg

This technique is pretty common today with drumset players, Jim Chapin being the most notable teacher. As it relates to modern marching percussionists, the technique can be useful if taught correctly. This is a great article explaining some of Moeller's ideologies, and you can decide for yourself how they could be applied to today's situations:

http://www.tarrani.com/GeorgeCarolInterview.pdf

This is a great topic. Remember, technique is only a means to an end result. If the beats are clean and the kids are learning that is all that matters. We all have our favorite ways of doing things (usually the way we initially learned), but we become more complete players and teachers when we try to understand other ways of doing things.

Edited October 15, 2008 by drumphd

[Slow Adam]

This is a great topic. Remember, technique is only a means to an end result. If the beats are clean and the kids are learning that is all that matters. We all have our favorite ways of doing things (usually the way we initially learned), but we become more complete players and teachers when we try to understand other ways of doing things.

This is probably the best paragraph so far.

[84BDsop]

This is wh I'm glad I play brass....all I have to worry about is pushing a few valves down....no real differances in technique there!

[RevPit08]

This was touched on in another thread a while ago in which I questioned and "odd" grip that I had seen in a video. I would like some more information. The grip I am referring to is where you have the fulcrum using the middle finger and the thumb. I noticed the Troopers tenor line uses this grip. Can you all explain this grip to me? Can you post some pictures? Can you point me in a direction online to where I can read about it? Is there any advantage/disadvantage to using it? It just looks really unnatural and awkward. I tried it and it just doesn't feel right. And I think it looks stupid with the index finger just kinda sticking out there.

Revolution uses a middle finger fulcrum, and it's the most brilliant technical advance since kevlar.

You hold the stick as you would hold a baby bird: Not tight enough to kill it, but don't let it get away.

Letting the stick resonate gives the drum a fuller sound and makes legato AND accent/tap passages much easier.

And you won't get tendonitis.

Video of Rev's Drumline :

http://promark-stix.com/video_players/main...%27V1LSZ%22Y%27[%27%2C0%3A4%22%2BA_]_R^.B7F^%20%3FL%20%2B1ZJG-%0A

and a better description of the technique can be found in the free revolution battery audition packet at revolution's website.

Revolutionypa.org

[sday88]

Revolution uses a middle finger fulcrum, and it's the most brilliant technical advance since kevlar.

You hold the stick as you would hold a baby bird: Not tight enough to kill it, but don't let it get away.

Letting the stick resonate gives the drum a fuller sound and makes legato AND accent/tap passages much easier.

And you won't get tendonitis.

Video of Rev's Drumline :

http://promark-stix.com/video_players/main...%27V1LSZ%22Y%27[%27%2C0%3A4%22%2BA_]_R^.B7F^%20%3FL%20%2B1ZJG-%0A

and a better description of the technique can be found in the free revolution battery audition packet at revolution's website.

Revolutionypa.org

The link doesn't work. And the description in the audition packet really doesn't tell me jack-diddly-squat.

So is the thumb and middle finger directly across from each other on the stick as it would be with the thumb and index finger on a standard grip? I don't understand how using the middle finger as the fulcrum allows better back finger control. I would think it would hinder it since there is essentially one less finger back there to use. And what does the index finger now do? Nothing? Just float out there in space? I'm not being sarcastic or anything, I'm just trying to understand.

[Sneauxdog]

Yes, that is the fulcrum commonly used for the Moeller stroke, originally a military band stroke.

Check out these Dave Weckl videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oisX1nhhmeM...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFZfOLbnBwI

He discusses why he switched from the index/thumb grip to the middle/thumb grip.

If the links don't work, just search "Weckl Moeller".

[Slow Adam]

I watched those Weckl vids last week. Before you string him up Scott, just remember he is a drummer, not a physicist, haha.

[08Hawkeye]

I'm not sure why I overlooked this thread, but I have what I think will be quality input, as I was taught both front finger and middle finger fulcrums. I'm at work, so look for a post in a couple hours.

[08Hawkeye]

I've generally played most my "career" with the stick borderline on the side of my thumb, and the top knuckle of my index finger. It seemed to allow me to play as I wanted, with control, speed, whatver. Plus it adhered to the mostly-followed "no-gap" conformity. Not til 2006 was I exposed to the middle finger fulcrum and looser grip. I'll preface this by saying I'm not great at it yet, even after a whole season. But it is definitely a technique CHANGE and takes some getting used to. 2 steps forward, 1 step back sort of thing. As Adam said, I found myself using the index finger for some passages, and the middle finger for others. All that being said, I'm really converting myself and my students to the technique, both to the best of my abilities.

A couple points to consider:

1) Sound Quality.

Argue all you want on this, I simply don't even care, I know I'm right. The BEST sound quality WILL come from letting the stick vibrate through the stroke. I USED to be taught, that vibration in the stick was energy that could be going through the drumhead. WRONG. Not to flame the cadets, I know they have drum trophies, good for them - but their sound quality has truely been just.. gross. However, people look past it because rolls at 200bpm sound sweet. When you squeeze the stick at the fulcrum too hard, you choke off the sound and it does not carry like it does when you let the stick vibrate.

Most drum corps drumming employed index FF because we need to freeze the stick at playing position after a downstroke. The best way to do that was to have as many fingers as possible behind the fulcrum to squeeze the back of the stick into the palm.

NOOOOO!!!!! "squeeze the stick into the palm." NO! You don't need to squeeze at all. Just stop your wrist at the bottom. That's it. I admit, I had trouble hearing this from my caption head - it didn't make sense to me. but like all good things come... practice... and I got better. When you squeeze ANY stroke you're murdering the length of sound you COULD be producing. Try it. stand at the back hash. have someone else sit in the stands premium seats. play a set of 8s with each technique and ask the person which was louder. The sound simply does not carry.

This squeezing the stick talk segues nicely into..

2) the "gap"

[flame-suit on, zipped, hood up, mask down]

Here's why I disagree with the no-gap rule. I hope we can all agree one of the pillars of rudimental drumming is to eliminate any sort of tension. yes? great. Ok experiment. put your hand out, with your other hand put the stick in it. wrap your fingers around the stick. if you closed the "gap" ... you havent even played anything and you ALREADY have tension in your hand. It takes force/muscle/effort whatever you wanna call it JUST to close the gap. A litte, maybe, but its still there. This is physically unnatural, and at its core NOT conducive to fluency of the stroke.

I took the time to describe these elements because they are both pervasive technique ... highlights (for lack of a better word)... of the middle finger fulcrum technique. The fact that the index finger happens to fall of the stick and/or "point" is if anything laziness on the players part. The index fingers is utilized for stability and control, but can easily be tucked under the stick without affecting the nature of the middle finger fulcrum. And, I promise your hands wont be as tired at the end of the day, and your index finger won't frickin bruise and hurt. The middle finger allows for stick shock with the regular extension of the finger. The index fulcrum absorbs the shock going sideways against the finger bone. After 8and200 a few times, or a beefy show segment? ouch!

I got a good look at some drumlines this summer, but wasnt exactly looking for this in particular, so I'll see if I can find some videos and/or pictures tonight. But I know for a fact Cap Reg 06 snares were very uniform in this technique, whether the notes they played were clean or not - the uniformity was there. Blue Stars are also doing this since Brent Montgomery came to town - they drummed very well and are only climbing the ranks.

The difference in sound is apparent for the trained ear. For myself I might even cringe at a clean roll when I see white knuckles pumping out the diddles. But for the average fan who might just be looking for ripped rolls or tears, its a little harder to notice. In that case, thats only part of the scorecard, uniformity of technique being the other. Obviously the one that does both better wins, so therein lies the tradeoff.

Edited October 22, 2008 by 08Hawkeye