bawker Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 Drum corps could do the same - but only if it's willing to have a Kris as champion. So . . .who was last seasons "Kris"? I'd be willing to bet it would either be Phantom or Carolina Crown. Crown as champion would probably ruffle some feathers, but hey, with Phantom . . .maybe the people would get it "right" every once in a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glory Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 So . . .who was last seasons "Kris"?I'd be willing to bet it would either be Phantom or Carolina Crown. Crown as champion would probably ruffle some feathers, but hey, with Phantom . . .maybe the people would get it "right" every once in a while. Of course the crowd would get it right some of the time, maybe much of the time. Last year probably isn't a great example for this discussion because there were plenty of possible champions to choose from. A better example might be 2007 where Crown again was a fan favorite even as - and you'll pardon the characterization - more sophisticated viewers conceded deficiencies in several categories. How would we feel putting Crown's appeal in 2007 ahead of BD's achievement? In 2008, the interests of the crowd and the judges happened to coincide. I'm not sure that was the case in 2007. HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvertrombone Posted May 22, 2009 Author Share Posted May 22, 2009 Of course the crowd would get it right some of the time, maybe much of the time. Last year probably isn't a great example for this discussion because there were plenty of possible champions to choose from. A better example might be 2007 where Crown again was a fan favorite even as - and you'll pardon the characterization - more sophisticated viewers conceded deficiencies in several categories. How would we feel putting Crown's appeal in 2007 ahead of BD's achievement? In 2008, the interests of the crowd and the judges happened to coincide. I'm not sure that was the case in 2007. HH GREAT question!! I'd have to say that Crown over BD OR Cadets in 07 would have been a travesty from a performance standpoint...those two were just on a different plane! But from an entertainment standpoint...no question whatsoever. Crown was good enough, and its (fan) GE was out of this world. Like I said in my original post, a BIG shout out to Crown 07 in this entire discussion. In fact, I had to question just how much of the "Spartacus Effect" was actually the "Crown Effect." Remember, though, that I also gave a big shout out to Faust as the model that Rockford used in designing Spartacus. And its not like Phantom has ever had to rely on anyone else as the model to put on a crowd-pleaser! But due must be paid, nevertheless! Quite frankly, worthy of its own thread (if any of you Crown honks would like to do the honors)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvertrombone Posted May 22, 2009 Author Share Posted May 22, 2009 1.) Great point, and question. I guess we'll see, maybe not this year, but in future years. 2.) To what you said about taking the fans judgement over the judges, I respect your personal preference. I'll take what the judges have to say. Different strokes. 3.) I just don't think that "crowd pleasing" has any merit as a metric for competition. 1.) Thank you. 2.) Agreed...different strokes...thank you for stating it so well. 3.) However, a fan response caption might be an interesting add. If it resulted in EVERY corps performing shows like the 6 in this countdown, I'll betcha EVERYONE would like the result, if not the results. In other words, the change towards entertainment, if not the placements. Great points, all--keep 'em coming! Season is almost upon us, then we will be able to judge for ourselves, so to speak, the "Spartacus Effect"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mad_scotty Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 1.) Thank you.2.) Agreed...different strokes...thank you for stating it so well. 3.) However, a fan response caption might be an interesting add. If it resulted in EVERY corps performing shows like the 6 in this countdown, I'll betcha EVERYONE would like the result, if not the results. In other words, the change towards entertainment, if not the placements. Great points, all--keep 'em coming! Season is almost upon us, then we will be able to judge for ourselves, so to speak, the "Spartacus Effect"! there was a fan response caption, once. actually a caption designed to take those "wow moments" that impacted the stands into account when scoring corps. they called it ge and it worked wonders throughout the 80's, where the top shows were well designed, well executed, and generally speaking crowd pleasers. then in 93 star came in second place with an unlikebale show performed by a hornline that couldn't project (most of the people i talked too on tour in 93 thought they sounded like a slightly cleaner version of the 93 blue knights) and an enormous pit. then the vids showed up in everyones mailbox, and apparently that corps projected very well into the mic's because now the show was a challenging show performed by a pristine hornline that usddenly sounded like a slightly cleaner version of the 91 blue devils (same enormous pit). dci has suffered from a 15 year hangover from that offseason of people trying to figure out how the cadets won. aparently ge got the blame, because that category hasn't really been judged according to dci's own criteria since (unless someone can think of an instance where the more popular corps beat the cleaner corps between 1994 and 2007). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mad_scotty Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 But the examples you cite can't possibly apply to our situation because the parties involved in fact are in a symbiotic relationship that doesn't and can't exist in drum corps. Gamblers and investors operate in markets in which supply and demand exercise pressure over time to set the level and influence the outcome. The Vegas line is inaccurate because that line is established to balance both sides of the bet so that the bookmaker can profit in the middle. It's slightly different on Wall Street where the small investors and the big money manager compete for optimum pricing and thus returns over time. The difference is Wall Street's horizon tends to be shorter than the small investor, skewing evaluations such as these. That said, it is a rare investor indeed who can "beat" the market or the pros.*As for the main point about the wisdom of crowds, that's no certainty either. Crowds make the wrong choice too. Leisure suits once were popular. Crowds love the Jonas Brothers. Do you? American Idol just crowned it's champion, and he's a perfect example for this discussion. The general consensus is that Adam was the superior talent. Yet the crowd selected Kris. Was the crowd wrong? Of course not. The ingenious American Idol formula assures that the champion arrives with demand already created for the product to be marketed: Kris, the champion. Drum corps could do the same - but only if it's willing to have a Kris as champion. HH *This word of warning from me to any Wall Street novices: Wall Street pros have advantages in information and pricing that you can't dream of replicating. Don't try to compete in that space. actually, if you saw me in a nice restaurant on a date you'd see me wearing a sports jacket, nice open necked shirt, pants and dress shoes. the colors are a little different, and the cuffs of my sleeves and pant legs narrow cut instead of flaring, but basically an updated leisure suit. and i'm no fan of the jonas brothers, but when i hear them i'm impressed with the professionalism that goes into their material. i don't watch american idol, but why are you assuming the second best person beat the best person in finals? it seems the general consensus of the voters was that kris was the superior talent. the point is selling albums and tickets still, isn't it? seems like american idol has a decent formula for figuring that out, at least. when you're in the entertainment industry, like american idol and drum corps are, you should worry about selling tickets. tickets keep the busses rolling, and lord knows drum corps could stand some extra revenues right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCordell Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 there was a fan response caption, once. actually a caption designed to take those "wow moments" that impacted the stands into account when scoring corps. they called it ge and it worked wonders throughout the 80's, where the top shows were well designed, well executed, and generally speaking crowd pleasers. then in 93 star came in second place with an unlikebale show performed by a hornline that couldn't project (most of the people i talked too on tour in 93 thought they sounded like a slightly cleaner version of the 93 blue knights) and an enormous pit. then the vids showed up in everyones mailbox, and apparently that corps projected very well into the mic's because now the show was a challenging show performed by a pristine hornline that usddenly sounded like a slightly cleaner version of the 91 blue devils (same enormous pit). dci has suffered from a 15 year hangover from that offseason of people trying to figure out how the cadets won. aparently ge got the blame, because that category hasn't really been judged according to dci's own criteria since (unless someone can think of an instance where the more popular corps beat the cleaner corps between 1994 and 2007). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 You can't even be serious anymore. I don't know what else to say... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 I think that, given the way they overhauled their judging system to make it more hands-off and objective, I believe their system wins hands-down. Now, if we were talking about the old 10-point system, I would have said the two systems were equally flawed, but for different reasons. odd. i find their system to be just as whacked as ever even with the changes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 there was a fan response caption, once. actually a caption designed to take those "wow moments" that impacted the stands into account when scoring corps. they called it ge and it worked wonders throughout the 80's, where the top shows were well designed, well executed, and generally speaking crowd pleasers. then in 93 star came in second place with an unlikebale show performed by a hornline that couldn't project (most of the people i talked too on tour in 93 thought they sounded like a slightly cleaner version of the 93 blue knights) and an enormous pit. then the vids showed up in everyones mailbox, and apparently that corps projected very well into the mic's because now the show was a challenging show performed by a pristine hornline that usddenly sounded like a slightly cleaner version of the 91 blue devils (same enormous pit). dci has suffered from a 15 year hangover from that offseason of people trying to figure out how the cadets won. aparently ge got the blame, because that category hasn't really been judged according to dci's own criteria since (unless someone can think of an instance where the more popular corps beat the cleaner corps between 1994 and 2007). um...while not trying to sound like Richard, GE is still there. However fan reaction was never part of the equation. 93 Star couldnt project???? Um...I dont think you get the show. Not on my top 10 list all time, but they projected plenty when they needed to. more popular winner since 94? in many peoples eyes Phantom 96, the tie in 2000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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