Tom Brace Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Also, DCA has far less of those changes-particularly the controversial ones and is stronger now than in many years. Stonger how exactly? As has been discussed many times and agreed to be people on both sides. DCA, like all its current counterparts DCI WC and OC for instance...are stagnant at best in... number of existing corps... number of performance opportunities... paying butts in seats... fundraising opportunities... It is clear by any analysis that drum corps, as an activity is stagnant in growth...AT BEST. I would entertain ANY arguments to the contrary...just bring the facts with you when you come to the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Brace Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 well, i am glad he found it as my night was spent at the hospital attending to my mom. thanks audiobob I hope all is well with her and your family. Prayers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmroth1 Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 A couple things stick out to me when you get into these conversations about changes to drum corps, what's happened to the activity as a whole (in terms of number of corps and interest in the activity) or the discussion about a particular board member and corps director so affectionately called Hoppy, Happy, or something to that affect. 1) Resistance tends to come in mass from forum support members and quickly. 2) Very poor generalizations and attacks are made about who you might be and why you might disagree with the evolution guru and you are automatically a "Legacy Fan". It seems that this dumb term was created purposely just to give those who want to pursue certain evolutional changes a way to blow off those who oppose the changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Brace Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Seriously? As if DCI without electronics would be "irrelevant"? So yes, taken over time the totality of the new rules is what has caused attendance to drop? No attributable attendance drop actually. Stagnant attendance or any drops caused by many other factors than merely rules changes. Average finals attendance is very stagnant. So is overall fans viewing shows whether in the stands or on the internet. I would agree, however that there may be evidence in attendance drops from DCI's "classic era." However, it can't merely be washed by blanket statements that rules changes drove away all the fans. Fans stopped coming to drum corps shows for a variety of different reasons...some, because the rules changed...but I would wager those fans are a wash and in the replacement by the advent of new fans who come to drum corps not by changes in the rules, but because they were attracted by the thing they had never seen before. Anecdotal, yes, but 4 people in a matter of two hours showed up at a high school stadium I was at last night. There were lights on and that was an oddity in this neighborhood in the early summer. Also, the pounding of drums and horns had drawn their attention. They asked about what was happening to a couple of staff members sitting near the visual caption head with the lone ranger and mic. They were told about the upcoming show and they asked where they could get tickets. Oh, by the way...synth, amps and mics in the pit. Did that matter to these new would be fans? Nope. They wanted tickets because they thought what they were seeing was cool. They had no ties to tradition or history and so the presence of electronic equipment wasn't even noticed as a difference. So, the legacy fans...who understand the differences are affected by the change. I get it. Some are less than adaptive than others to the changes, eh, that happens. I also believe in the concept of a "line of demarcation." I also believe the line is different for different people. So, you tell me how a not-for-profit organization with a meager operating budget gets the marketing data that thousands of companies pay millions of dollars for to help determine the tipping points, the average line of demarcation. Please, enlighten me. A sidelight...I have a brother who is like a PR guru. Works as President of PR for a Top 50 company. Enough said. We discussed recently an orange juice manufacturer's failed repackaging effort. Failed. Miserably. Within a month of launch they had abandoned the effort and reintroduced their former packaging at a cost of millions. So, if a major company...with millions and millions of dollars to waste on trying to predict what their customers want and can't manage to get anywhere near the bullseye at the cost of millions of dollars...aren't we, the drum corps public, making extremely unrealistic expectations for DCI? Yes? So, here's my assessment. DCI is, in this case, putting the needs of legacy fans as secondary...yes, my opinion is, you are being treated like second class citizens of drum corps. We agree on that much. So the why? I posit the reason is rather a simple one. They are attempting to increase relevance with what is becoming their chief source of future revenue...high school band members, especially those from competitive marching programs. So following the trends...the changes have been made to attempt to grow and preserve a future...where the future members were and are going to come from. The bill payers of the present and future. I think someone in another thread put a line of demarcation for them as 1987. They enjoy shows from 1988 to present...1987 back not nearly so much. For the next person in the thread, 1993. I'd appreciate in hearing other sides of this argument. I look forward to your reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HockeyDad Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 I hope all is well with her and your family.Prayers. Hey - I thought you declared yourself *done* with this thread back on about page 80. Number Two Cabal of Eight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Brace Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 That's so true. I mainly go to DCA shows these days. With no mics, synths or cellos, the stands have been packed and the audiences enthusiastic.] Finals attendance is dwarfed by DCI...usually 3:1. As far as enthusiasm...DCI's fans are also enthusiatic...in case you haven't noticed. Oh, cellos? No. Violins will be allowed before cellos. And woodwinds before both. I'm very glad you are supportive of drum corps. And I'm glad DCA has you as a fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Brace Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 DCI in the late '80s/early '90s was relevant to the young audience, old audience...the entire audience, and that form of drum corps, if we still had the luxury to see it, would still be just as relevant to today's young and old audiences.That's the kicker. The shows that hearken back to that style, those are the ones that are successful with the audience. So, you are saying two things here... Shows from the 80s and 90s were the most popular... But shows from today...with mics and amps and Bb horns are successful... So, I think I can say that according to you...drum corps with today's instruments including mics and synths can be successful with the entirety of the audience. Good. We agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Brace Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Has Hopkins said anything truly remarkable here? Yes. This is where the fallacious argument about "renewable" fans originated. Hopkins characterized legacy fans as "the classic audience of 1975". That is not a demographic - that's just a snapshot in time, a generation (or in marketing terms, a generational cohort). He categorized these people as a generation purposely so that he could dismiss them as "a diminishing group in terms of numbers". Later references to the target audience do not speak of the audience of 2002 - they characterize the target audience as "young people", "kids", "predominantly students" - all demographic terms. That's comparing apples to oranges. You still hear some people on this thread that fall for this flawed logic. and how is the logic flawed? And explain that to the 25000 people who viewed finals night on 2007. Plus those of us at quarters in the theaters and semis on the Internet. I'd appreciate to find out why DCI is so flawed. Perhaps it is simply because you are no longer involved. It can't be as simple as that can it? Because you really are involved...and passionate...and spending hours and hours of time, energy and passion concerning DCI. Yeah, you're still a fan. It's like when a favorite player gets traded from your baseball team. It's the biggest fans who scream the most. And I appreciate your attention toward DCI. I believe honest and healthy debate is healthy for the future. I believe currently the information provided by legacy fans is an important counterpoint to be considered. However, consideration is nowhere near capitulation. In some cases one simple word would suffice. Noted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Brace Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 A couple things stick out to me when you get into these conversations about changes to drum corps, what's happened to the activity as a whole (in terms of number of corps and interest in the activity) or the discussion about a particular board member and corps director so affectionately called Hoppy, Happy, or something to that affect.1) Resistance tends to come in mass from forum support members and quickly. 2) Very poor generalizations and attacks are made about who you might be and why you might disagree with the evolution guru and you are automatically a "Legacy Fan". It seems that this dumb term was created purposely just to give those who want to pursue certain evolutional changes a way to blow off those who oppose the changes. Yes, you hit on it. We have our own Kabal. The secret is out. Hurry...fellow Kabal members...to the secret hideout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Brace Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Hey - I thought you declared yourself *done* with this thread back on about page 80.Number Two Cabal of Eight Guilty as charged. Too passionate about DCI I guess. I expect your impending lawsuit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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