2009 Rankings

[SquallLHeart]

pay no attention to the man behind the curtain..

*waves hands mysteriously*

[BOSMarcher]

DCI scores should not be included in this ranking list...even if they are using DCA sheets, it's not the same. I guarantee you, finals weekends the Renegades won't be second place. Sorry.

Hmmm... I agree with you, but I usually find DCI scores are not usually too high or low. It is just hard to compare a corps to nothing. DCI is so used to creating spreads, and with 1-3 DCA corps at a DCI show, it is hard to do that accurately... especially if they are Class A and Open.

So, I agree, but I also disagree with your statement.

[ScoutsCAV]

Challenge Accepted.

Thanks for the vote of confidence

Hey well if your up for the challenge go for it, I'm sure tons of people would love to see Renegades in second place. I just don't think its going to happen. Surprise me please.

[CVQuesty]

So as far as yelling at Eastern corps to go traveling... you're really not going to get anywhere. So how about some real ideas that might actually work?

Y'know, this argument isn't any more valid this particular discussion than it was the last 47 times we've had it.

Outliers factor into their YEARLY OPERATING BUDGET traveling around the country to get decent scores. Yes, there are plenty of shows in shouting distance all over the Northeast. However, outliers have to give up extra staff, arranging fees, time on the road in lieu of extra rehearsal blocks, and resources to make it somewhere that they can get decent scores compared to all the other corps they will see at championships. Net gain in comparison to other corps. Net loss in overall instructional resources. It is indeed a zero-sum game.

For each trip North for us, for instance, we just budget the 10-12 grand for the trip in the yearly planning meeting. It's really that simple! Just saying from the outset "We're going to Timbuktu. How much will it cost, what will it take, we're committed enough to the circuit and the need to see all competitors that we'll take the financial hit."

That's right, folks. as much as 12k a trip (and that's after vetting a couple dozen bus companies each and every year). Now, performance fees don't even come close to that. So, outliers find it in their best interest to eat the cost of that travel for a competitive perspective. The membership buys into this in their acceptance of much higher membership fees to help the corps get down the road. Truly, everyone must buy into the philosophy.

I think the true issue here is that outliers are highly motivated (scores, for instance) to make those trips. NE corps don't have the same motivation, as scores are easier to obtain even though some groups have to bus as much as 6-8 hours.

I don't think the argument that continues to reappear here works because the motivations are different between "home base" and the "outfield".

Outliers want to get more time seen by DCA judges in DCA shows compared to other DCA corps they will see in championships. It is a calculated cost of "doing business" in the circuit. You budget for it, eat the cost of a Marimba each and every time you do it, and you just do it. You do it happily, and you do it without complaining.

The thing about reciprocal action is that the NE has no similar motivation. Not good. Not evil. It just is what it is.

Here's where the philosophical discourse deviates.

For NE corps to come to other areas, the only motivation is benevolence. NE corps have no need to go to other regions for the scores they need, they have no reason to make those trips like outliers do. Instead, the only motivation is enlarging other circuits (and by proxy DCA's whole circuit) and the appeal of the DCA activity in other regions. In truth, outliers get a return on their money in scores. NE corps do not. These outliers' shows are all in their beginning stages (the oldest home show that I am aware of being very young in comparison to DCA itself) and in some cases is a money loser and some just starting to make money for the first time in recent years.

So with no hope for financial recompense in the near term in the form of performance fees to corps, a trip out of region (and I mean all the way... Kiltie's show, CV's show, Renegades show, MBI's show etc.) is a 100% investment in the circuit and not in the direct interests of the traveling NE corps.

I think what will need to happen will be for the importance of the growth and extension of the circuit to become more important than the money/resources lost for the corps in question.

Again, not bad, not good... it just is what it is.

The real question left by this discussion is: "When is the enlargement and growth of the circuit worth the investment it'll take to make it happen?"

Anyone care to venture a guess?

[Jeff Ream]

in todays economy......i'd be more worried about the money honestly.

[sopbabe]

Y'know, this argument isn't any more valid this particular discussion than it was the last 47 times we've had it.

Outliers factor into their YEARLY OPERATING BUDGET traveling around the country to get decent scores. Yes, there are plenty of shows in shouting distance all over the Northeast. However, outliers have to give up extra staff, arranging fees, time on the road in lieu of extra rehearsal blocks, and resources to make it somewhere that they can get decent scores compared to all the other corps they will see at championships. Net gain in comparison to other corps. Net loss in overall instructional resources. It is indeed a zero-sum game.

For each trip North for us, for instance, we just budget the 10-12 grand for the trip in the yearly planning meeting. It's really that simple! Just saying from the outset "We're going to Timbuktu. How much will it cost, what will it take, we're committed enough to the circuit and the need to see all competitors that we'll take the financial hit."

That's right, folks. as much as 12k a trip (and that's after vetting a couple dozen bus companies each and every year). Now, performance fees don't even come close to that. So, outliers find it in their best interest to eat the cost of that travel for a competitive perspective. The membership buys into this in their acceptance of much higher membership fees to help the corps get down the road. Truly, everyone must buy into the philosophy.

I think the true issue here is that outliers are highly motivated (scores, for instance) to make those trips. NE corps don't have the same motivation, as scores are easier to obtain even though some groups have to bus as much as 6-8 hours.

I don't think the argument that continues to reappear here works because the motivations are different between "home base" and the "outfield".

Outliers want to get more time seen by DCA judges in DCA shows compared to other DCA corps they will see in championships. It is a calculated cost of "doing business" in the circuit. You budget for it, eat the cost of a Marimba each and every time you do it, and you just do it. You do it happily, and you do it without complaining.

The thing about reciprocal action is that the NE has no similar motivation. Not good. Not evil. It just is what it is.

Here's where the philosophical discourse deviates.

For NE corps to come to other areas, the only motivation is benevolence. NE corps have no need to go to other regions for the scores they need, they have no reason to make those trips like outliers do. Instead, the only motivation is enlarging other circuits (and by proxy DCA's whole circuit) and the appeal of the DCA activity in other regions. In truth, outliers get a return on their money in scores. NE corps do not. These outliers' shows are all in their beginning stages (the oldest home show that I am aware of being very young in comparison to DCA itself) and in some cases is a money loser and some just starting to make money for the first time in recent years.

So with no hope for financial recompense in the near term in the form of performance fees to corps, a trip out of region (and I mean all the way... Kiltie's show, CV's show, Renegades show, MBI's show etc.) is a 100% investment in the circuit and not in the direct interests of the traveling NE corps.

I think what will need to happen will be for the importance of the growth and extension of the circuit to become more important than the money/resources lost for the corps in question.

Again, not bad, not good... it just is what it is.

The real question left by this discussion is: "When is the enlargement and growth of the circuit worth the investment it'll take to make it happen?"

Anyone care to venture a guess?

Kudos...very well put!!!

[MiniSopGuy]

Depends on your definition of it. If you think I mean they have enough money to be throwing pizza and beer parties for the members every weekend, then probably none. Besides, think of the stereotypes that would start/perpetuate!

If your corps has enough money to pay for all the staff, unis, instruments, and can still keep their ledgers in the black, then I think that's pretty financially stable. Most of the big NE corps are [seem to be] in this situation.

So it seems if a moderator wanted to take the time, this topic could get split into two now since it has strayed way off topic of 2009 rankings. That being the case, I will stay off on the tangent topic and go one further based on the quote above.

I would love to see corps from the east come out west so we could hold an official DCA show out here with only DCA corps and not needing the DCi Open class to make a complete show. Whenever this topic comes up, we always ask the east coast corps to put themselves in our position to appreciate what it takes for us to travel out there for championships. I am sure it only takes a moment to understand. However, if we want them to do this, we should also be willing to put ourselves in their shoes and see how they look at this. I think when we do that, we can see that logically it does not make sense for a corps from the east to travel out west simply for "a show". At least when we travel, it is for "championships" and not just another show. On the flip side though, I think that making a rule that prevents a corps from well outside the "normal" DCA area who has proven themselves time and again at campionships to have a better seeding position for prelims is also wrong. But that is just me.

The other tangent I mentioned came to mind reading the above quote....

Two questions come to mind:

Are most of the corps in the north east self sufficient where member dues are not a big part of the operating budget?

It seems that every time this travel discussion comes up that someone says that the choice was made to compete and the travel must be budgeted for if you want to make the trip. This makes the presumption that the corps has money other than membership fees(or required fundraising obligation because that is really just another extention of dues) for instance bingo, corporate sponsorship, etc. Out here, we are 100% funded by membership fees. When we "budget" for the trip to championships, that means we make a calculation of how much the bus in NY, the truck rental to get there and fuel will cost. We add that to our other annual expenses of running the corps, then we divide that cost by the "expected membership" and come up with our membership fee. Then each member also has to pay for transportation to get to NY and the hotel in NY.

Do most north east corps have staffs that are paid?

Ours are all volunteer. From the Cap heads to the techs, arrangers and designers, none are paid positions. We all do it for the "fun" of doing it.

Edited July 21, 2009 by MiniSopGuy

[Adam Jones]

To me personally... Championships is just another show... it just happens to be at the end of the season. Stanford is a much bigger show of the season. It makes sense to me for a couple East Coast corps to come west everyonce in a while now that there is a significant community out here (has been for the last few years). Anyway... it will cost alot of money... it is more about a want or desire to do it than money.

I am pretty sure it costs me twice as much to do Renegades as it did to march Mandarins in 01 and 02 which cost me $2000 each season.

When you factor in how much you have to take care of on your own from Gas, airplanes, hotel rooms, hydration, food, sun screen, clothing, sticks, tape and actual corps fees I am sure it is well over what I was paying to do Junior corps and we did about twice as many shows.

I am not complaining... I enjoy doing the activity. It would be nice for us to go to Scranton. But it would have been pretty sick to have 3-4 east coast corps at our home show on Sunday and it wouldn't just be one show... the saturday show was 30 minutes away from the sunday show. Plus could you imagine how the west coast fan base would have reacted to see 4 other all-age corps. Most of the people in those stands are only exposed to Renegades and Dream. I think it would do well to the cause of All-age corps and gaining support to see the caliber of the product put out there times 3.

[ContraRich77]

Here is the exact scenario under which the NE corps would come West. No more, no less:

We would have to build a circuit of West Coast corps that not only dominated the top 5 at DCA, but won it every year turning it into a colossal joke. The very notion of a "DCA World Championship" turned into the most pathetic of jokes, where under the only scenario any all age corps wanted to be universally recognized as THE BEST would HAVE to travel West to gain that recognition legitimately.

WE ARE A VERY, VERY, VERY LONG DISTANCE FROM THIS GOAL.

Unless and until that scenario happens, we will continue to empty our wallets, and the NE will continue to have 2-300 membership fees. Sorry to be so blunt about it, but life just ain't fair.

[Jami]

I can tell you right now - I've only ever had one year of drum corps where I paid anything remotely close to the 2-300 dollar range.

Everything else has been $500 and above.