cadlag Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Each year, there is always some discussion about a slotting conspiracy among DCI judges. If 2008 was not proof enough, I think this year is reasonably strong evidence that the judges do not slot, nor are halos granted to last year's champion. I know it is fun to have a conspiracy story, but seriously, DCI judges can pick out winners (even if a large portion of judging is subjective). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGarrett Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 well, that seems to be a statement... so OK. But I have stated and am well known for my theories. I backed off the "conspiracy" theories because they weren't coming out right in a message board forum... very misunderstood. But you just "answered" my issue with that whole conspiracy feeling: "Subjective judging." Judging will never be perfect, since they might miss many things... ie: a corps who's drumline does not really play or move off the "goal line" area for like 4 minutes or so... and yet is still scoring "middle of the top 12 pack" ... now how can that be??? And "slotting" or "seeding" ... well if that actually DOES happen, well then THAT, too, is wrong and unfair because it IMPLIES a "pre-determined" place in scoring and competition, not allowing for late surges or improvement in a short time, and puts a deserving corps in a "spot" based on a performance two weeks ago instead of a possible higher well deserved spot due to rapid improvement. And that, of course, would be WRONG in this competitive "sport" wouldn't it? Yes it would. So there. So does anyone still want to tell me about "seeding" and how that works? Go ahead... I'm listening. Be sure to include the part where that's fair if it is happening... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rd_Star_Brigade Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Each year, there is always some discussion about a slotting conspiracy among DCI judges. If 2008 was not proof enough, I think this year is reasonably strong evidence that the judges do not slot, nor are halos granted to last year's champion. I know it is fun to have a conspiracy story, but seriously, DCI judges can pick out winners (even if a large portion of judging is subjective). B.S. fact, not opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Time Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I rarely have any problems with DCI's judging. Once in a while I might think there's a hornline or color guard that is being underrated by the judges but generally I can watch a drum corps show and check out the recaps later and usually agree with the judges marks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersop Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 well, that seems to be a statement... so OK. But I have stated and am well known for my theories. I backed off the "conspiracy" theories because they weren't coming out right in a message board forum... very misunderstood. But you just "answered" my issue with that whole conspiracy feeling: "Subjective judging." Judging will never be perfect, since they might miss many things... ie: a corps who's drumline does not really play or move off the "goal line" area for like 4 minutes or so... and yet is still scoring "middle of the top 12 pack" ... now how can that be??? And "slotting" or "seeding" ... well if that actually DOES happen, well then THAT, too, is wrong and unfair because it IMPLIES a "pre-determined" place in scoring and competition, not allowing for late surges or improvement in a short time, and puts a deserving corps in a "spot" based on a performance two weeks ago instead of a possible higher well deserved spot due to rapid improvement. And that, of course, would be WRONG in this competitive "sport" wouldn't it? Yes it would. So there. So does anyone still want to tell me about "seeding" and how that works? Go ahead... I'm listening. Be sure to include the part where that's fair if it is happening... Slotting and Seeding aren't the same thing. Both happen, but are different. Seeding implies that a judge with use one corps as a benchmark and then add or subtract tenths for the following corps to get their placements right (horrible practice but totally FACT and apparent). Slotting is the assumption that corps A is better than corps B, therefore their seeding should follow accordingly. This should be illegal - period. If a judge sat there watching and judging the show, then read the back of the sheet and applied a number based on those observations that matched the actual box criteria ..... you would have bigger point spreads ... more ties in subcaptions .... and a lot more to complain about when recaps are released. At least it would be an accurate and fair assessment of what the judge actually saw and heard rather than a comparison to the corps who went on before or after them. The game is stacked from the getgo .... just based on the order of performance. Surely, if a corps was last years champ and comes out way off the mark ... I can see the corps getting real numbers (for a couple of weeks - then ranking comes into play). If that same corps comes out and is just as good as they usually are, the same game goes into effect and there's no questions asked. This results in very little shakeup in the top 7 or so. Some of them might flip a spot or two, but that's about it. The last thing to remember, the top 4 corps are all splitting caption wins. Although a BD might be ahead of the pack by 1.65 that doesn't mean they're locked. It means that the top 4 corps are so strong that whomever get's the cleanest and sells the show the best will be the champ. Everything below 3rd place is slot and rank. Sorry but history supports this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGarrett Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I do appreciate that explanation. And I do appreciate that you are also saying that the concept of "slotting" and "seeding" is indeed very wrong. I hope it doesn't happen. What would be the point of judging the show at all then? Why not then just announce: "As predetermined in our opinions and by the surmised placement of the corps from last year and into earlier competitions this year, we have decided that the competition will be placed like this: In 12th place... " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT-Horn Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I've always thought sponsors also play a part in slotting, but that's another discussion for another day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SACMellos2010 Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Say no to the Koolaid..... DCI never objective but always subjective... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BozzlyB Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 (edited) Hmm, slotting is definitely wrong, but seeding is something I see as a reward given to corps A over corps B for consistently having a higher level of performance and or show design over several shows within the span of one season, and recognized as such by a variety of judging panels, not just one. Where slotting is most obvious to me, is at the beginning of the season, when corps A (who beat corps B at finals previous year) comes out and beats corps B the beginning of the next season even though they have an inferior product. This happens all the time, every season IMO. Most of the time this is rectified within a few weeks as the judging community gets on board with the shows and really recognizes who is better. I would like to see judges at shows from the beginning, but giving critique only with no scores offered until maybe the 3rd or 4th week of the season. Edited July 21, 2009 by BozzlyB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 (edited) Judges are human beings. Even among themselves, they don't often agree on what they like or don't like, which is natural. If we had 2 separate judging panels in 2 separate and isolated booths evaluating the same 12 Corps performances on a given competition, theoretically the scores, spreads and placements should be the same, correct ? But they wouldn't be. Sure, among the mix of groupings of 3-4 Corps, they'd probably be grouped together, but otherwise thy'd be wide discepancies in the scores and placements among each grouping in my opinion. For instance, among the grouping of Boston, Phantom, Blue Stars, Glassmen, in my view we'd see different placements, spreads and scores among the 2 panels. Same performances..... 2 sets of judges...... different scores. No conspiracy. All judges experienced and trained well. No favorites. no biases. Just different likes and dislikes, and different takes on the same show performances, that's all. Thus, in my view how a Corps does in competition is every bit a function of who the Corps draws as Judges in competition as much as their performance that night. Can't prove it, obviously... but we can't disprove it either. But if folks think the 2 sets of judges would have these placements and scores and spreads the same among these groupings,in my view they'd find out otherwise. But of course, we'll never really know one way or the other. Edited July 21, 2009 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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