What issues have caused controversy in drumlines?

[Avert67]

On the idea that mylar heads made drums sound like drums...

What exactly defines what sounds like a drum and what doesn't?

Drum is an extremely vague word...there's so many different types of drums. So many different sounds...I personally think we're cheating ourselves if we're limiting ourselves to ONE type of snare sound that is supposed to sound like every other snare drum in the classical/drum set world.

And besides, let's face it-even those drums are sounding higher and tighter every day. The ideal snare drum sound for a drumset these days is tight, and articulate-but still resonant and ringy, if you know what I mean.

Anyway, I don't think we should be limiting ourselves to one type of sound for any drum at all...limits the creativity, and that's never fun. Kevlar sounds DIFFERENT-that's a good enough reason for me.

And if you heard Bluecoats and Boston's snares from this past year, you'll be pleasantly surprised, I think.

[TastyWaves]

I don't know about this one... The mylar drums up until the TDR were definately lighter than even Pearl Articulites. I think CabsAlumni quoted about 7lbs in another thread. The Slingerland TDR came into vogue in the mid-late 70s and lasted into the 80s. It was a heavier drum, bad a great sound, as you can see in this discussion. http://www.bluedevils.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=17255

I have a vintage 15 inch TDR and can't seem to find my scale, so I'm only going to hazzard a guess, but I think it's a little less than my articulite but not by much. So it's bit less than the full sized Dynasty, Yamaha, and Pearl Kevlar drums,

Also, about the "Civil War" era sound. I think you have to historicize a bit. In the early to mid- 1970s, the sound in vogue was darker, fuller and more like what you would call "Civil War." On the other hand, those drums were extremely LOUD. You really had to experience it live-it would knock your socks off. By the early 80s, however, the sound was much closer to the pitch of Kevlar with a fuller body. We used to crank the heads down with an added metal head rim to get more leverage. That was pretty common in the TDR era. Eventually Remo came up with the powerstroke with the rubber ring around the rim to help crank even more. So there was a sound that anticipated kevlar's high pitch by the mid-1980s.

You are right about the tenors-not only more drums, but the "mack daddy" tenors are in vogue now. They just look a ton. But some of the early tenor (triples!) players playing timp-toms with either slings or very crude harnesses hefted some real tonage.

I was very lucky to have the experience I did. It was very well rounded. Particularly in the USMC Drum and Bugle Corps.

We did a variety of styles and types of presentations.

Everything from color presentations and change of commands, to our more "Contemporary style" show.

Lets face it, for all of the arguing in various parts of this thread (including myself), we can truly only speak to our own personal experience.

My experience was that our old drums were heavier.

For our Marine Barracks "Friday Night Parade", we used to do half and half.

The first have was with drums on slings. OLD Ludwigs, Mylar heads, barely cranked (you could tension with an old drumset key) very low tension. 6 Snare drums and two basses playing "Heavy Left".

We always loved the mid portion of the show because we would disappear into the back while the Silent Drill Platoon was on, and switch to our "Contemporary" Line up of 8 snares, 4 Quads, 4 Bass and with our All new line of Pearl Drums.

Again, when making the switch to a Pearl drum with the Carrier, it was alot lighter than the sling and the 15 Inch Ludwig.

To answer a different post, i dont think all mylar sounds like "Civil war". That was me being sarcastical. In fact, in one of my other posts, i make very clear that i loved alot of mylar lines.

PArticularly 86 and 87 Devils, and 91 and 92 Star of Indiana. I think 92 Star had the best snare sound ive ever heard.

Premier as a company was GARBAGE!! Totally worthless with no redeaming features.

BUT, they did make the premier marathon batter head which i LOVED. I have the school i teach play on Mylar sometimes. I dont have a predetermined line up of heads or tuning methods. It changes based on the composition of the brass/Woodwind scores. Sometimes, Mylar just fits better. Sadly, they dont make a mylar head as good as the Premier head was.

The remo is about as good as it gets and frankly isnt that good. If i am going to make the effort to tune 10X as often and double hoop and go through more heads, i want better sound than most are offering from a Mylar head.

[TastyWaves]

On the idea that mylar heads made drums sound like drums...

What exactly defines what sounds like a drum and what doesn't?

Drum is an extremely vague word...there's so many different types of drums. So many different sounds...I personally think we're cheating ourselves if we're limiting ourselves to ONE type of snare sound that is supposed to sound like every other snare drum in the classical/drum set world.

And besides, let's face it-even those drums are sounding higher and tighter every day. The ideal snare drum sound for a drumset these days is tight, and articulate-but still resonant and ringy, if you know what I mean.

Anyway, I don't think we should be limiting ourselves to one type of sound for any drum at all...limits the creativity, and that's never fun. Kevlar sounds DIFFERENT-that's a good enough reason for me.

And if you heard Bluecoats and Boston's snares from this past year, you'll be pleasantly surprised, I think.

To some people, it only sounds like a drum if it sounds like it did "When I marched".

Kind of like all of the "Its not real drum corps" you get on DCP. lol

I wonder if there was DCP back in the 60s and 70s, that the people from the 40s and 50s would gripe as much as some do here.

[supersop]

To some people, it only sounds like a drum if it sounds like it did "When I marched".

Kind of like all of the "Its not real drum corps" you get on DCP. lol

I wonder if there was DCP back in the 60s and 70s, that the people from the 40s and 50s would gripe as much as some do here.

Way to de-legitimize an honest conversation about the difference in drum heads, tuning and the end resulting sound. There is a ton more info in this thread than "what a drum SHOULD sound like". I think it's more about this type of setup sounds like "this" .. and that kind of setup sounds like "that". I prefer THIS to THAT and here is why.

Playing the old geezer card is really getting lame around here.

[TastyWaves]

Way to de-legitimize an honest conversation about the difference in drum heads, tuning and the end resulting sound. There is a ton more info in this thread than "what a drum SHOULD sound like". I think it's more about this type of setup sounds like "this" .. and that kind of setup sounds like "that". I prefer THIS to THAT and here is why.

Playing the old geezer card is really getting lame around here.

"Honest conversation"? lol. Thats funny. Everyone is allowed to argue and belittle everyone elses thoughts and opinions until an "older" person gets called out. Then its a crime.

In any case, there is no "Old Geezer" card being played here. I wouldnt do that for several reasons.

1) I aint that young myself anymore. 34 years old now. Sounds wierd to say it, but i aint a kid! lol

2) I was taught by "Back in the Day" guys. Most of the people who taught me, (even as recently as my 2006) were older people.

Most of them are great because they are not so narrow minded and closed off to the possibility to the idea that something besides a 1978 arrangement of Malaguena can be considered legitimate or that a piece of equipment manufactured after 2000 can be good.

Again, read my actual thoughts anywhere in here and you will see that I am not against anything "old". In fact, i learned a great deal from it. My comments are directed only to those with closed minded "I am better than you because im older" junk.

I remember when my HS instructor told me he couldnt hang with me anymore chops wise. It cracked me up. Now, i have former students who KILL me on a drum! Its a great thing to have happen.

But in here its "Oh no! that person who marched after 1985 has an opinon! we better call him an idiot".

Anyway, i would say that all of our arguing are answering the point of the thread. "Controversy".

[MGCpimpOtimp]

4. Rudimental playing VS. Orchestral nuance support

This really took place when the field judges of the 80's and early 90's were pushed out and replaced with classically trained percussionists. Of course, the drum lines of today play a ton of notes with lightening fast hands ...... but how musical is it really and do the judges really know how to judge it? Beyond that, how many judges can pick out a rudiment at 180+ bpm and call out the tick on the fly during a show.... (with specificity and accurate knowledge of what was actually played)? Pretty much 1 that I've seen and heard on a judges tape. This was the norm when I marched. Drum judges knew how to play and knew their rudiments, rational combination's of rudiments, when they were played and how well they were played and could call out the exact note being played in real time and who ticked and how. Now the corps get generalized statements about, nice expression, watch the release of the roll, check the 3rd double stop for a weak left hand ............ I mean ..... where's the knowledge from the DCI judges? This heavily shifted the way arrangers wrote their books. Float in the 80's was THE premier arranger for battery and left at the end of the rudimental era in drumming. To me, it's pretty sad.

I would rather see truly great rudimental hands in a line on heads that won't break their wrists. I would also like to hear more melodic writing while still knowing when to ram it out in appropriate spots. Make the tuning logical so you have a Sop, Tenor, Bass sound in the battery. You can do so much more with the writing when the drums are tuned properly and used in a choral voice structure. I'm not going to get into pits other than suggest that amping should have a db limit ... it's gotten out of hand.

So says the brass player.........

What tapes do you listen to? Probably the finals tapes on the dvds right? Those are only the top 6 tapes, from finals, so really, that's the reason you don't here all those things getting called out. I've heard lots of tapes over the past four years from all parts of the season, and all those things are in there. Really impressive those judges, running their butts off, while calling out hybrid rudiments. Wish they'd bring back perc 2 though, there is SO MUCH missed by only having one judge for percussion.

[Gaddabout]

On the idea that mylar heads made drums sound like drums...

What exactly defines what sounds like a drum and what doesn't?

Drum is an extremely vague word...there's so many different types of drums. So many different sounds...I personally think we're cheating ourselves if we're limiting ourselves to ONE type of snare sound that is supposed to sound like every other snare drum in the classical/drum set world.

And besides, let's face it-even those drums are sounding higher and tighter every day. The ideal snare drum sound for a drumset these days is tight, and articulate-but still resonant and ringy, if you know what I mean.

Anyway, I don't think we should be limiting ourselves to one type of sound for any drum at all...limits the creativity, and that's never fun. Kevlar sounds DIFFERENT-that's a good enough reason for me.

And if you heard Bluecoats and Boston's snares from this past year, you'll be pleasantly surprised, I think.

I think the bottom line for most people who don't like kevlar is the desire to hear the actual snares rattling in the drum. This is an effect that can ONLY be observed by listening from afar. Playing a modern marching snare with a kevlar head up close, you can hear the snares rattle. But that effect totally disappears when you drop back 20 feet or so. OTOH, 15" wooden drums with mylar heads ... listening to them now, it never occurred to me how muddy they were, but it's evident now. Even with great lines, it was truly a major achievement to get truly synced snare playing.

In terms of snare sounds in the drum set world ... I guess I would just say the Black Beauty remains an industry standard. As a gigging drummer, my BB is my work horse and no one's ever asked me for a Steve Jordan/popcorn snare sound. My BB has multiple tunings, but there remains a certain preferred snare aesthetic -- wet or dry -- that hasn't changed much the past 80 years (since the introduction of seamless metal shells). A snare is defined more by the reaction of the wires on the reso head than its pitch tuning. Otherwise it's just a seriously cranked single tenor drum.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Gaddabout

[pearlsnaredrummer77]

I was very lucky to have the experience I did. It was very well rounded. Particularly in the USMC Drum and Bugle Corps.

We did a variety of styles and types of presentations.

Everything from color presentations and change of commands, to our more "Contemporary style" show.

Lets face it, for all of the arguing in various parts of this thread (including myself), we can truly only speak to our own personal experience.

My experience was that our old drums were heavier.

For our Marine Barracks "Friday Night Parade", we used to do half and half.

The first have was with drums on slings. OLD Ludwigs, Mylar heads, barely cranked (you could tension with an old drumset key) very low tension. 6 Snare drums and two basses playing "Heavy Left".

We always loved the mid portion of the show because we would disappear into the back while the Silent Drill Platoon was on, and switch to our "Contemporary" Line up of 8 snares, 4 Quads, 4 Bass and with our All new line of Pearl Drums.

Again, when making the switch to a Pearl drum with the Carrier, it was alot lighter than the sling and the 15 Inch Ludwig.

To answer a different post, i dont think all mylar sounds like "Civil war". That was me being sarcastical. In fact, in one of my other posts, i make very clear that i loved alot of mylar lines.

PArticularly 86 and 87 Devils, and 91 and 92 Star of Indiana. I think 92 Star had the best snare sound ive ever heard.

Premier as a company was GARBAGE!! Totally worthless with no redeaming features.

BUT, they did make the premier marathon batter head which i LOVED. I have the school i teach play on Mylar sometimes. I dont have a predetermined line up of heads or tuning methods. It changes based on the composition of the brass/Woodwind scores. Sometimes, Mylar just fits better. Sadly, they dont make a mylar head as good as the Premier head was.

The remo is about as good as it gets and frankly isnt that good. If i am going to make the effort to tune 10X as often and double hoop and go through more heads, i want better sound than most are offering from a Mylar head.

Well, I think my point about the weights is again-maybe we need to think more carefully about the context and specific drum combos before we make blanket statements either way. I think practically everyone in this thread, myself included is guilty of trying to standardize a bunch of diversity. Historically there were weight differences in the various types of mylar drums by company, model and style. After my last post, I was thinking about it and I remember the die cast hoop (mylar) drums that probably were fairly close in weight to kevlar. On the other hand, Cabsalumni is playing on vintage 7 or 8 pound mylar drums right now. So I guess we have to realize that there were weight differences in the various types of mylar drums by company, model and style.

[DHSnare09]

i think the match grip thing with scv in 95 kinda ###### people off. i know i was kinda angry

[tommyfromhowardst]

i think the match grip thing with scv in 95 kinda ###### people off. i know i was kinda angry

Welcome to the forum! People do get testy about matched vs. classic--personally I'm not seeing the big deal. Any decent drummer should be able to play both styles without the least bit of thought. Do you suppose it's a look thing rather than anything else?