DCA Weekend Thoughts/Ramblings

[hotdogchompa]

it may be close, but my guess is clean wins. Again you dont get points just for trying

So in other word you are saying FC guard wasn't that good.

didnt see either sadly. But a grounded ensemble has challenges that a moving line doesnt. just because an ensemble doesnt move mean it's easier...they have, IMO, even more listening demands...and more props if they move around to different instruments...going from marimba to vibes means they have to master two similar, yet different disciplines

does that mean SD didn't have a grounded ensemble?

Edited September 12, 2009 by hotdogchompa

[hotdogchompa]

Ummmmmmmmm .......... WOW.

Thank you for dumping LSM in such a complete and thorough manner. According to the judges, LSM was doing some things right. In comparison with SD, SD was a tad better. By saying, "Is SD that bad???" You're directly implying that LSM = total suck ...... which I hope you retract and pretty darn fast or we won't be sharing a beer anytime soon. ....... if you catch my drift!

ummmmm....... DUHHHH..... your corps has a 7 man pit and the other corps has a 6 man pit AND a 13 man battery. The discussion was about size of sections having no bearing on scores. I could have compared Excelsior but LSM (sorry) was a more distinct example bringing up the debate that judges don't care about size of sections unless you are scary clean like Vigilantes.

I only asked the question - "Is SD that bad??? you be the judge" -

So are you saying SD sucked?

Further, Bigger numbers = easier to hide. Smaller numbers = easier to find ticks. Smaller is harder to achieve a high level than it is with more numbers. Granted, LSM had no battery on the field, but the last time I checked, the sheet didn't say FIELD BATTERY. There have been other corps in the past who have grounded their entire percussion ensemble and won world championships - VENTURES ring a bell?

I don't think bigger numbers make it easier to hide in a percussion battery. Oh god, I must be implying that brass is the area where bigger numbers means you can hide. I can't win......

How much time does the FIELD percussion judge spend on the FIELD in front of the snareline looking for dirt, stick heights, visuals, things that really don't apply to the front ensemble.

I am in no way implying LSM was better or worse than any other corps on the field at prelims ... but I'll be danged if you're going to throw any corps under the bus like that to try and prove a desperate point. It's LAME, juvenile and disrespectful to all involved (INCLUDING SD).

Ain't throwing anyone under the bus, you is just waaay too sensitive ( and danged ). It looks like SD may have been better off with less in your opinion or should they have more to hide the tics? Vigilantes must be hiding all kinds of ticks. ...... I'm giggling... I'm must be getting juvenile

I guess we can only have theoretical debates and not actual ones, where no one feels hurt.

I heard someone else say scores schmores. This is a competetive activity. You can deny it all you want but I think we ALL care about scores. Ask any corps in prelims that they were just happy to be only on the field for just Saturday. ha

Unless the schmores would give up a spot ?? I don't think so.

[supersop]

ummmmm....... DUHHHH..... your corps has a 7 man pit and the other corps has a 6 man pit AND a 13 man battery. The discussion was about size of sections having no bearing on scores. I could have compared Excelsior but LSM (sorry) was a more distinct example bringing up the debate that judges don't care about size of sections unless you are scary clean like Vigilantes.

I only asked the question - "Is SD that bad??? you be the judge" -

So are you saying SD sucked?

SNIP....

I believe you said it. Either way, it's still out of line.

My bigger numbers statement is clearly with regard to brass and not percussion. You can tell when a drummer stops playing ... you can't when it's brass.

Having an actual discussion is perfectly fine. Feelings have little to do with my post, but it has everything to do with the way you stated your question. Still way out of line but if you can't acknowledge that .... I see no reason in continuing the discussion.

[hotdogchompa]

I believe you said it. Either way, it's still out of line.

My bigger numbers statement is clearly with regard to brass and not percussion. You can tell when a drummer stops playing ... you can't when it's brass.

Having an actual discussion is perfectly fine. Feelings have little to do with my post, but it has everything to do with the way you stated your question. Still way out of line but if you can't acknowledge that .... I see no reason in continuing the discussion.

so you lost me.... don't want to respond to most of the questions or debate the merits...Just want a retraction. I am out of line because??.... ok LSM does not suck - at all. I think they had a pretty good show especially for limited percussion. I am sorry if anyone could get that I thought they were bad. I also don't think WS was bad at all but if FC had 3 times the guard how do they end up with a lower score. do they su........ oops can't say that.

Lets use "fake" corps then. Spirit of Oshkosh has only a 8 man front ensemble, not by design but by situation. they know that it limits how high a score they can get in percussion etc. they accept that because they want the corps to compete. ( do I really need to explain all this?).

anyway. Spirit of O get's a score of 101 in percussion. Now the Mighty Hempmen have a 7 man front ensemble with 6 snares, 3 tenors , 5 bass. They get a score of 109. Hmmm ? as it turns out , most of the corps in the show, except the top 4, have similar scores from 96-109. The top 4 have scores from 149-175. All the corps have various size percussion sections. Spirit of O feels pretty good that they can hang with most of the group. yay.... better than they expected.

Now the Hempmen are feeling down. Why? they have all that percussion. (boo-hoo) Do they suck?

How would anyone know? We have never seen or heard any of them and can only theorize what happened.

Your contention is that I stated facts and comparisons and because I used real drum corps you get offended and twist this into a vendetta thing, which it is not. Like Alan said, no one wants to hear the discussion or big picture but reduce it to only how it affects themselves.

[hotdogchompa]

so you lost me.... don't want to respond to most of the questions or debate the merits...Just want a retraction. I am out of line because??.... ok LSM does not suck - at all. (your words not mine) I think they had a pretty good show especially for limited percussion. I am sorry if anyone could get that I thought they were bad. I also don't think WS was bad at all but if FC had 3 times the guard how do they end up with a lower score. do they su........ oops can't say that.

Lets use "fake" corps then. Spirit of Oshkosh has only a 8 man front ensemble, not by design but by situation. they know that it limits how high a score they can get in percussion etc. they accept that because they want the corps to compete. ( do I really need to explain all this?).

anyway. Spirit of O get's a score of 101 in percussion. Now the Mighty Hempmen have a 7 man front ensemble with 6 snares, 3 tenors , 5 bass. They get a score of 109. Hmmm ? as it turns out , most of the corps in the show, except the top 4, have similar scores from 96-109. The top 4 have scores from 149-175. All the corps have various size percussion sections. Spirit of O feels pretty good that they can hang with most of the group. yay.... better than they expected.

Now the Hempmen are feeling down. Why? they have all that percussion. (boo-hoo) Do they suck?

How would anyone know? We have never seen or heard any of them and can only theorize what happened.

Your contention is that I stated facts and comparisons and because I used real drum corps you get offended and twist this into a vendetta thing, which it is not. Like Alan said, no one wants to hear the discussion or big picture but reduce it to only how it affects themselves.

I was giving this some thought. I am sorry if offended anyone. Not my intention. Lets start over. I admire your defense of your corps.

Just to get way back to the OP and that Class A corps would have sucesss if they copy/emulate the winning corps program.

My thought is that Class A is not a smaller version of Open but more like a bigger version of Mini-Corps (with partial field drill) in the judges eyes hence the question that size does not equate anything. Volume of sound, difficulty in book, difficulty in drill, difficulty in visual and guard. Less is more and you have the advantage if you can keep it small yet have all bases covered and thats cool. Class A corps should shoot for small and only take in the cream of the crops if you want a winning program. Bigger will have no weight unless that corps just totally blows down the house.

Edited September 12, 2009 by hotdogchompa

[trptrex]

I was giving this some thought. I am sorry if offended anyone. Not my intention. Lets start over. I admire your defense of your corps.

Just to get way back to the OP and that Class A corps would have sucesss if they copy/emulate the winning corps program.

My thought is that Class A is not a smaller version of Open but more like a bigger version of Mini-Corps (with partial field drill) in the judges eyes hence the question that size does not equate anything. Volume of sound, difficulty in book, difficulty in drill, difficulty in visual and guard. Less is more and you have the advantage if you can keep it small yet have all bases covered and thats cool. Class A corps should shoot for small and only take in the cream of the crops if you want a winning program. Bigger will have no weight unless that corps just totally blows down the house.

I feel that this is what is going on. That class A corps are being help back in their scores as not to overcome some of the open class corps. Why can't the class A corps be scored higher? We are not in the same competition with the open class. IMO class A corps don't get the scores or respect that they deserve. If we are in a different class then why shouldn't the Govies be in the 90's etc. To me it doesn't make sense and the whole judging of class A should be different. Then maybe the class A corps will get the scores that they deserve. However, IMO there is a need to take a look at the responsibilities of being a judge. What is a judge's responsibility? How many times throughout the season in some show does a judge dump a corp in some caption and give the excuse that oh its my first read? IMO things like this shouldn't happen. Every corp whether open or class A works hard every week to improve their score and unless they really lay an egg on the field their scores should reflect that. And when we performed at prelims why is it that most all of class A scores dropped!!!? Also why is there a need for a break during prelims in class A and not open? IMO DCA needs to take a hard look at the judging system. Give the class A corps the credit that they deserve. Don't compare us to the open class corps. Remember that it is two different classes and not one.

[Mellodoug1]

Not a review of the performances, but I figured I'd put this here anyway.....

After dinner Friday night, we made it over to the convention center in time for the last six mini-corps performances. From our viewing area, the four of us (Barbara, me, my sister and brother-in-law) unanimously agreed that the Ghost Riders were our favorite of the night....taking nothing at all away from any of the other performances, which were all solid. But Friday's performance was the best I've ever heard from the Ghost Riders. Star United deserved the win.... that horn line is scary clean.... but we had the Ghost Riders in solo second and much, much closer in score to Star than was reflected in the final results.

Here's to a great 2010 for all of you!

Fran

A Huge "THANK YOU" for your comments on Ghost. After 14 years @ DCA mini corps championships we also know that never before has GR played with the quality we had this year. This comes about due to many factors and mostly hard work over the past 3 years. It has been a building process. Donny Allen has been a tremendous help in getting our sound blended, balanced and musical. Show design has been on the money with choice of music very pallatable for the fans and judges alike.

The solo fests of the 90's (you could win then with it) are pretty much a thing of the past. I'm somewhat concerned however that the sheets that are being used by the judges do not have blend and balance as a criteria. We knew when we completed our program the crowd loved us. That was our reward for the year. When the DVD of the night shows up in the mail, we'll watch it ..... scratch our heads here @ Ghost Riders Central in "Parts Unkown", say to each other Fran and his group were right and begin again for next years run.

Thank you to Star for putting that bar so high ...... it surely has developed the quality of this show for all the fans to enjoy. We will not stop ...... We did it in 2000 ..... I remember that magical nite and the feeling it left us with to win this thing. One more time ..... Go Ghost

[supersop]

I feel that this is what is going on. That class A corps are being help back in their scores as not to overcome some of the open class corps. Why can't the class A corps be scored higher? We are not in the same competition with the open class. IMO class A corps don't get the scores or respect that they deserve. If we are in a different class then why shouldn't the Govies be in the 90's etc. To me it doesn't make sense and the whole judging of class A should be different. Then maybe the class A corps will get the scores that they deserve. However, IMO there is a need to take a look at the responsibilities of being a judge. What is a judge's responsibility? How many times throughout the season in some show does a judge dump a corp in some caption and give the excuse that oh its my first read? IMO things like this shouldn't happen. Every corp whether open or class A works hard every week to improve their score and unless they really lay an egg on the field their scores should reflect that. And when we performed at prelims why is it that most all of class A scores dropped!!!? Also why is there a need for a break during prelims in class A and not open? IMO DCA needs to take a hard look at the judging system. Give the class A corps the credit that they deserve. Don't compare us to the open class corps. Remember that it is two different classes and not one.

On some levels I agree with this. On the other hand, it directly mirrors what is done in DCI (which I despise). I would hate to see a separation of classes entirely where no Class A corps ever has a chance to make it into Open Class Finals if they are deserving. I would rather get a 45 and know that's what my corps deserved when stacking up to the larger corps. For one simple reason ...... drum corps is drum corps ... good is good .... bad is bad. We're mostly adults at DCA and understand how to handle disappointment or THE TRUTH.

Some in this thread aren't understanding of what that truth is ... or how to handle it. But, that will come with experience and years in the activity. Judging is still a bit of a mystery to everyone other than the corps who get seen the most (East Coast Corps). They do get seen about 5 times more than most other corps outside the region. This is an advantage for those corps .. and a hardship for the judging community. What I really don't understand is how the box criteria could change so much in 2 weeks. I'll be dead honest here about the corps I was with. In MN the show was a bag. In Rochester ... it was a good 15 pts (or more) better than what was offered 2 weeks prior, yet saw a score drop of 4 pts. That's roughly a 20 pt swing.

I would prefer scores that are more accurate during the regular season .... and then get what is deserved at Nationals. The huge swings are really difficult to understand .. either that or the "Out of Region" judging isn't scoring based on East Coast standards on the DCA sheets.

The Class A corps are smaller ... but honestly not that much smaller. When top 7 corps have 35 horns .. why would it not be possible for a 25 member horn line to beat or meet them competitively? Same said for percussion, visual, guard and even GE. Scoring head to head doesn't bother most of us one bit. It's the lack of consistency from week to week in the judging that is the issue. No slam on DCA or the judges ...... I just think there has to be an easier method for judges on a first or second read to score accurately according to Finals week standards.

Edited September 13, 2009 by supersop

[trptrex]

On some levels I agree with this. On the other hand, it directly mirrors what is done in DCI (which I despise). I would hate to see a separation of classes entirely where no Class A corps ever has a chance to make it into Open Class Finals if they are deserving. I would rather get a 45 and know that's what my corps deserved when stacking up to the larger corps. For one simple reason ...... drum corps is drum corps ... good is good .... bad is bad. We're mostly adults at DCA and understand how to handle disappointment or THE TRUTH.

Some in this thread aren't understanding of what that truth is ... or how to handle it. But, that will come with experience and years in the activity. Judging is still a bit of a mystery to everyone other than the corps who get seen the most (East Coast Corps). They do get seen about 5 times more than most other corps outside the region. This is an advantage for those corps .. and a hardship for the judging community. What I really don't understand is how the box criteria could change so much in 2 weeks. I'll be dead honest here about the corps I was with. In MN the show was a bag. In Rochester ... it was a good 15 pts (or more) better than what was offered 2 weeks prior, yet saw a score drop of 4 pts. That's roughly a 20 pt swing.

I would prefer scores that are more accurate during the regular season .... and then get what is deserved at Nationals. The huge swings are really difficult to understand .. either that or the "Out of Region" judging isn't scoring based on East Coast standards on the DCA sheets.

The Class A corps are smaller ... but honestly not that much smaller. When top 7 corps have 35 horns .. why would it not be possible for a 25 member horn line to beat or meet them competitively? Same said for percussion, visual, guard and even GE. Scoring head to head doesn't bother most of us one bit. It's the lack of consistency from week to week in the judging that is the issue. No slam on DCA or the judges ...... I just think there has to be an easier method for judges on a first or second read to score accurately according to Finals week standards.

I'm not positive but I don't believe that a class A corp can move into an open class spot. Does anyone know for sure?

[Gary Matczak]

I'm not positive but I don't believe that a class A corp can move into an open class spot. Does anyone know for sure?

they can;'t,..................however, if a class A corps has a score that is in the top 10 at prelims, they become one of the 10 voting members of DCA,.............