1979 vs 2007 a debate

[ftwdrummer]

Agree. It's not so much WHAT is being played, but HOW.

I also agree it's all a matter of preference when we watch and listen to the music of 1979 and that of 2007. I personally think more of the music in the Top 12 of 1979 is more " hummable " than that of 2007.

But it's all so " different " as others have correctly said too. I can plug in a tape of 1979 Super Bowl Game between Dallas Cowboys vs. Pittsburgh Steelers and compare with the Super Bowl in 2007 between the NY Giants vs. the New England Patriots, and much of the game itself has changed very little. Same as watching the 1979 NHL Stanley Cup matchup between the NY Rangers vs. Montreal Canadiens with that of the 2007 NHL Stanley Cup matchup between the Anaheim Ducks vs. the Ottawa Senators. ( same with NBA, MLB, World Soccer Federation etc Championships )

These 1979 Championships don't look and sound the same as 2007 . As a matter of fact, The 1979 DCI Championships and the 2007 DCI Championships bear very little resemblance at all to one another. It is just " different ". Much different. ( notice I do not say one is " better", as this is a matter of preference)

This analysis doesn't discuss the fact, however, that each of the aforementioned sports leagues were farther along in their evolution than DCI was in 1979.

Easiest comparison to make is with basketball (mostly because I just finished reading a 700-page book on the history of the NBA):

The Basketball Association of America (later to be known as the National Basketball Association) was founded in 1946 by hockey owners who wanted basketball games at their arenas (similar to DCI being founded in 1972 by the corps themselves, separating themselves to a certain extent from the VFW circuit).

The NBA added a shot clock in 1954 to speed up games (analogous to asymmetric drill). While the concept is introduced by the owner of the Syracuse Nationals, the team that capitalizes on this the most in the next few years is the Boston Celtics (similar, in my mind, to SCV introducing asymmetric drill and Cadets capitalizing on it in the 80's).

A rival league, the ABA, appeared in 1966 and developed a completely different take on the game of basketball than the NBA. The two leagues uneasily coexisted for a few years, until merger happened and the ABA disappeared (shades of Star coming in on a completely different trajectory to the rest of the activity, succeeding, going in a completely different direction in 1993, and, ultimately, disappearing as well).

In 1979, the Celtics and Lakers got two transcendent players, and their rivalry (between the players and the teams themselves) becomes a major point of the next few years (SCV's reemergence in the late '90s, against the Blue Devils return to dominance over the same time period).

Finally, one player and his team (Jordan's Bulls) take over the activity for an extended period, dominating all comers for the next couple of years (shades of the Cavaliers in the first half of the '00s)...before the league returns to a relatively equal playing field, in which various teams contend every year (the Lakers and Spurs, and to a lesser extent the Mavericks in the NBA; the Cadets, Devils, and Cavaliers in DCI). Some groups reemerge as true contenders...some do it for the first time (the Celtics' resurgence in 2008 in the NBA vs. SCV 2009; the Cavaliers' emergence behind LeBron in the late '00s vs. Crown).

Obviously, DCI's evolved in a more compressed time frame than the NBA did. But the various landmarks are surprisingly similar. So, really, trying to compare DCI 1979/2007 isn't a straight comparison to the NBA in the same time frame (Sonics over Bullets compared to Spurs over Cavaliers). Probably the most accurate comparison is trying to compare DCI 1979/2007 with the NBA Finals in 1954 and 2000 (Mikan's Lakers over Syracuse vs. Shaq's Lakers over Reggie Miller's Pacers).

So...um...yeah. I can't believe I made that whole argument semi-intelligently.

[perc2100]

On this, I totally agree. I can name a million (okay, not literally, but I could name over 100) songs that I learned to like via DCI. But thanks to the nature of arranging for more recent shows, it's slowed down considerably in recent years. Way too many transitions that break up the "flow" of songs, I think, or cuts to different pieces altogether.

Mike

I'm with you as far as discovering a TON of new music because of years of listening to drum corps arrangements. When I had to take the music theory/history placement exam for college, I often found myself smirking at orchestral/band excerpts played that I knew of because of drum corps.

[perc2100]

Marching is more exciting today, no doubt. The music was more exciting in 1979, no doubt. It would be cool to mix them.

From videos released on their site, we may very well see that this summer with Scouts.

[BRASSO]

This analysis doesn't discuss the fact, however, that each of the aforementioned sports leagues were farther along in their evolution than DCI was in 1979.

Easiest comparison to make is with basketball (mostly because I just finished reading a 700-page book on the history of the NBA):

The Basketball Association of America (later to be known as the National Basketball Association) was founded in 1946 by hockey owners who wanted basketball games at their arenas (similar to DCI being founded in 1972 by the corps themselves, separating themselves to a certain extent from the VFW circuit).

The NBA added a shot clock in 1954 to speed up games (analogous to asymmetric drill). While the concept is introduced by the owner of the Syracuse Nationals, the team that capitalizes on this the most in the next few years is the Boston Celtics (similar, in my mind, to SCV introducing asymmetric drill and Cadets capitalizing on it in the 80's).

A rival league, the ABA, appeared in 1966 and developed a completely different take on the game of basketball than the NBA. The two leagues uneasily coexisted for a few years, until merger happened and the ABA disappeared (shades of Star coming in on a completely different trajectory to the rest of the activity, succeeding, going in a completely different direction in 1993, and, ultimately, disappearing as well).

In 1979, the Celtics and Lakers got two transcendent players, and their rivalry (between the players and the teams themselves) becomes a major point of the next few years (SCV's reemergence in the late '90s, against the Blue Devils return to dominance over the same time period).

Finally, one player and his team (Jordan's Bulls) take over the activity for an extended period, dominating all comers for the next couple of years (shades of the Cavaliers in the first half of the '00s)...before the league returns to a relatively equal playing field, in which various teams contend every year (the Lakers and Spurs, and to a lesser extent the Mavericks in the NBA; the Cadets, Devils, and Cavaliers in DCI). Some groups reemerge as true contenders...some do it for the first time (the Celtics' resurgence in 2008 in the NBA vs. SCV 2009; the Cavaliers' emergence behind LeBron in the late '00s vs. Crown).

Obviously, DCI's evolved in a more compressed time frame than the NBA did. But the various landmarks are surprisingly similar. So, really, trying to compare DCI 1979/2007 isn't a straight comparison to the NBA in the same time frame (Sonics over Bullets compared to Spurs over Cavaliers). Probably the most accurate comparison is trying to compare DCI 1979/2007 with the NBA Finals in 1954 and 2000 (Mikan's Lakers over Syracuse vs. Shaq's Lakers over Reggie Miller's Pacers).

So...um...yeah. I can't believe I made that whole argument semi-intelligently.

Nice analysis. I credit you with that. However, If we stick with the SAME timelines between NBA, NHL, MLB, College Football, hockey, soccer and.......Drum and Bugle Corps, we will see that the changes in Drum and Bugle Corps dwarf those of ANY of these other sports. Not just cosmetic changes. But substantive, transformational ( some would argue, " radical " ) changes that involved fundamental changes in such things as equipment used in competition, rules of engagement, how they are judged ( umped, ref'd ), length of time of competition, what is allowed ( and not allowed ) on the feld of competition, numbers of accepted marchers ( or players ) in competition, and many , many other changes in Drum and Bugle Corps over that of any of these sports.

If we use your timeline..... 1954 to today, the changes in basketball, football, baseball, soccer, hockey and so forth are minor compared with the changes in Drum and Bugle Corps. For example :

look at a tape of baseball in 1954.... then 2009

look at a tape of hockey in 1954.........then 2009

look at a tape of soccer in 1954.........then 2009

look at a tape of basketball in 1954....then 2009

look at a tape of football in 1954........then 2009

look at a tape of Drum Corps in 1954...then 2009.

Once we engage in this timeline comparison, and watch the tapes comparisons, it's hard not to conclude that any of these activities has changed more transformationally than the Drum and Bugle Corps.

Edited January 26, 2010 by BRASSO

[bstar82]

This analysis doesn't discuss the fact, however, that each of the aforementioned sports leagues were farther along in their evolution than DCI was in 1979.

Easiest comparison to make is with basketball (mostly because I just finished reading a 700-page book on the history of the NBA):

The Basketball Association of America (later to be known as the National Basketball Association) was founded in 1946 by hockey owners who wanted basketball games at their arenas (similar to DCI being founded in 1972 by the corps themselves, separating themselves to a certain extent from the VFW circuit).

The NBA added a shot clock in 1954 to speed up games (analogous to asymmetric drill). While the concept is introduced by the owner of the Syracuse Nationals, the team that capitalizes on this the most in the next few years is the Boston Celtics (similar, in my mind, to SCV introducing asymmetric drill and Cadets capitalizing on it in the 80's).

A rival league, the ABA, appeared in 1966 and developed a completely different take on the game of basketball than the NBA. The two leagues uneasily coexisted for a few years, until merger happened and the ABA disappeared (shades of Star coming in on a completely different trajectory to the rest of the activity, succeeding, going in a completely different direction in 1993, and, ultimately, disappearing as well).

In 1979, the Celtics and Lakers got two transcendent players, and their rivalry (between the players and the teams themselves) becomes a major point of the next few years (SCV's reemergence in the late '90s, against the Blue Devils return to dominance over the same time period).

Finally, one player and his team (Jordan's Bulls) take over the activity for an extended period, dominating all comers for the next couple of years (shades of the Cavaliers in the first half of the '00s)...before the league returns to a relatively equal playing field, in which various teams contend every year (the Lakers and Spurs, and to a lesser extent the Mavericks in the NBA; the Cadets, Devils, and Cavaliers in DCI). Some groups reemerge as true contenders...some do it for the first time (the Celtics' resurgence in 2008 in the NBA vs. SCV 2009; the Cavaliers' emergence behind LeBron in the late '00s vs. Crown).

Obviously, DCI's evolved in a more compressed time frame than the NBA did. But the various landmarks are surprisingly similar. So, really, trying to compare DCI 1979/2007 isn't a straight comparison to the NBA in the same time frame (Sonics over Bullets compared to Spurs over Cavaliers). Probably the most accurate comparison is trying to compare DCI 1979/2007 with the NBA Finals in 1954 and 2000 (Mikan's Lakers over Syracuse vs. Shaq's Lakers over Reggie Miller's Pacers).

So...um...yeah. I can't believe I made that whole argument semi-intelligently.

Adding to your mentioning of the ABA. The ABA albeit cash poor and hurting for fans, was one of the best to things to restore popularity in the NBA. Four teams were merged into the NBA, the Nuggets, Pacers, Nets and Spurs while the players on the teams that were dissolved were put into a dispersal draft among the rest of the NBA teams. The NBA adopted the three point line which was an ABA staple from the beginning and a GM named Carl Scheer came up with the idea of All Star Saturday which included the first slam dunk contest which by now has become somewhat boring. But to show how talented the ABA players compared to the NBA, in the first all star game following the merger, 6 of the 10 starters came from the ABA. Julius Erving, David Thompson, Dan Issel, George Gervin to name a few. And the first NBA final after the merger? The Denver Nuggets made it to the Western Finals only to lose to eventual champion Portland who had ABA'ers Maurice Lucas, Don Buse and Dave Twardzik in their lineup and they defeated the Sixers w/ Dr. J, and George McGinnis also from ther ABA.

I can't help but think of the way DCI was formed back in the 70's with the meeting of minds of Jim Jones, Don Warren, Bill Howard and others who felt this was at the time to unify and start steering away from the VFW, American Legion and other judging associations and build a solid foundation that jr. corps could and would follow. From everything I have read and heard, DCI was pretty much in the same boat as the ABA in terms of budgeting, lack of national exposure and just being a new organization that would have to find their niche for the entertainment dollar. The big difference was DCI not having to compete against another league as the ABA had to versus the established NBA.

[BRASSO]

Adding to your mentioning of the ABA. The ABA albeit cash poor and hurting for fans, was one of the best to things to restore popularity in the NBA. Four teams were merged into the NBA, the Nuggets, Pacers, Nets and Spurs while the players on the teams that were dissolved were put into a dispersal draft among the rest of the NBA teams. The NBA adopted the three point line which was an ABA staple from the beginning and a GM named Carl Scheer came up with the idea of All Star Saturday which included the first slam dunk contest which by now has become somewhat boring. But to show how talented the ABA players compared to the NBA, in the first all star game following the merger, 6 of the 10 starters came from the ABA. Julius Erving, David Thompson, Dan Issel, George Gervin to name a few. And the first NBA final after the merger? The Denver Nuggets made it to the Western Finals only to lose to eventual champion Portland who had ABA'ers Maurice Lucas, Don Buse and Dave Twardzik in their lineup and they defeated the Sixers w/ Dr. J, and George McGinnis also from ther ABA.

I can't help but think of the way DCI was formed back in the 70's with the meeting of minds of Jim Jones, Don Warren, Bill Howard and others who felt this was at the time to unify and start steering away from the VFW, American Legion and other judging associations and build a solid foundation that jr. corps could and would follow. From everything I have read and heard, DCI was pretty much in the same boat as the ABA in terms of budgeting, lack of national exposure and just being a new organization that would have to find their niche for the entertainment dollar. The big difference was DCI not having to compete against another league as the ABA had to versus the established NBA.

And speaking of the ABA, they utilized the same size and weight basketball. But the ABA did something considered REALLY radical to the purists wth the basketball...... they made it multi- colored. That brought a howl. Imagine that. A change in COLOR only, brought a howl. And when the ABA fnally was absorbed by the NBA, the first thing the NBA did was to scrap the multi- colored basketball and return to the same single color brown basketball used from pretty much the invention of the game itself by Dr. Naismith many years earlier. As a matter of fact, the basketball utilized today is sturdier and durable for sure, but for all intents and purposes, the basketball ( or puck, or baseball, or soccer ball, or football) has changed very little as the main equipment used in these sports since 1954. Now as for the brass instruments ( and other instruments used in competition )used in Drum Corps 1954, and today in 2009, 2010...... well, need I say more regarding how much has REALLY changed here by comparison ?

Edited January 26, 2010 by BRASSO

[ftwdrummer]

And speaking of the ABA, they utilized the same size and weight basketball. But the ABA did something considered REALLY radical to the purists wth the basketball...... they made it multi- colored. That brought a howl. And when the ABA fnally was absorbed by the NBA the first thing the NBA did was to scrap the multi- colored basketball and return to the basketball used from pretty much the invention of the game itself by Dr. Naismith many years earlier. As a matter of fact, the basketball today is sturdier and durable, but for all intents and purposes, the basketball ( or puck, or baseball, or soccer ball, or football) has changed very little as the main equipment used in these sports since 1954. Now as for the brass instruments used in Drum Corps 1954, and today in 2009, 2010...... well, need I say more ?

Not that the NBA hasn't tried to change it (anyone remember the microfiber experiment?) The difference being, the marchers have not complained about Bb horns the way the players complained about the microfiber.

In response to the rules change thing:

Since the shot clock era began, the NBA has:

• started calling offensive goaltending
  
• added a 3-point line
  
• adjusted location of the 3-point line
  
• added a third referee
  
• begun calling hand checks
  
• changed traveling to 3 steps
  
• added a flagrant foul system
  
• adjusted time remaining on the shot clock in certain out-of-bounds cases
  
• changed time to cross halfcourt from 10 seconds to 8
  

DCI, in comparison has:

• changed horn line requirements
  
• changed scoring systems from tick to build-up
  
• permitted corps to begin at places other than the end line
  
• permitted vocals
  
• permitted amplification
  
• permitted electronics
  
• grounded certain percussion instruments to form a pit
  
• expanded potential number of competitors on the field
  
• changed competition time length
  

Not entirely dissimilar lists. There aren't too many direct comparisons to be made, though (the only obvious ones I can see are the 3-point line and the third referee, which are both analogous to changing from the tick system to build-up.

Edited January 26, 2010 by ftwdrummer

[GGarrett]

Here's what I was doing in 1979... (snare drummer closest to camera on the end there...)

I figure if we've gone into basketball... I can put up a shameless plug for myself from one of the years I marched...

[BRASSO]

It's really pretty easy to compare the degree of changes in basketball ( and other sports ) with Drum Corps changes.

Simply watch a tape from 1954 and a tape from 2007 in these competitive activities.

The 1954 basketball game for example will look different on the tape than the basketball game showed from 2007. ( and I'm not referring to the color of the skin here of the majority of players on the court in the tapes either, as it's acknowledged that this has perhaps been NBA basketball's single biggest transformational change since' 54 ).

But then watch a tape of a Drum Corps Nationals Championship from 1954 with that of 2007 DCI World Championships. The breadth and DEGREE of changes from 1954 to 2007 in Corps is much deeper, much wider than that of NBA basketball game changes between 1954 and 2007. It would be pretty obvious to everyone that looked at this objectively too.

I don't think it's possible to refute the fact that the changes in Corps from 1954 to 2007 pretty much DWARF those changes made in NBA basketball from 1954 to 2007, if we looked at the tapes. And Corps have changed more than all the other sports as well.

Edited January 26, 2010 by BRASSO

[Tez]

BRASSO keeps telling us to look at drum corps in 1979 (or 54) and compare to 2007, then do the same for any other sport.... obviously drum corps has changed more. But to me, modern drum corps began in 1984, and if you compare what you actually see on the field in the Cadets 1984 to a 2007 show, I don't think the change is any more than any other sport over it's first 25 years.

I think 1970 and prior drum corps is so fundamentally different from modern corps, that it's almost like a different activity. To continue with the sports comparisons, I think early drum corps can be associated with early versions of rugby.... from which American football evolved. If you watch a rugby match, then football... there is a striking difference, yet one evolved from the other, just like drum corps.

As for the changes since 1984... I still don't think any of them fundamentally changed the activity.

Equipment changes..... this has happened in almost every sport, especially football with all those pads.

Electronic instruments... this is the biggest change, but I don't think it is any bigger than implementing the shot clock in basketball, or the forward pass in football.