Putting my cards on the table

[luis]

You know that this is all one run on sentence right?

You are right, some drum corps don't emphasize education as much as they do competition, but they are in the minority. Even some of the top corps do put an emphasis on teaching and the member experience over competition.

With that being said, I don't think every corps is obligated to take on younger kids that aren't developed yet and develop them (like you suggested they should). That would hold the corps back and negatively effect the older members of the corps and effect their experience. So, have them go march a lower tier corps or a Open class corps and get that experience and training so that they can be ready the next year.

I know they're not obligated to take a younger kid but I put like these a kid 15-16 who is better than a college student just because he practices hard and get pretty good instruction, just he can't march pretty good well for that reason we have camps.

When you say lower tier I think thats bad every single drum corp is working their butts off to put a crowd pleasant show so for my opinion every drum corps should deserve respect it doesn't matter in which position they finish. For me is not about winning is about the expirience, and I got a great expirience last year marching and I have a bunch of years left and I don't care in which place we finish is just the expirence that counts.

So there's no such thing as a lower tier corps because everyone is doing something that only the dedicated can do it

[roosevelt]

I know over the last ....while or so it appears...no all my post have been negative. I hate being a negative person. I'm usually ther kind of person that tries to find solutions. And I think thats wre some of my frustrations come from with the activity. So I'm going to list my issues in no particular order

1- The music. As I write this I'm listening to Chuck Mangione's Land of Make Believe. I first heard this song from a drum corps. Alot of music I like now I got from corps. My favorite song ...Appalichain (sic) Spring from corps. I found music from Aaron Copeland to Dave Brubek that I wouldn't have. I haven't heard anything in the last 15 years that makes me want to find the orginal except 2 pieces, Canyon and Pollock. I think the "snippet" arranging is hurting things. There is very little (at least to me) memorable music.

There IS some memorable music as of late. The promise of living this past year by Crown was Fantastic as was Slalom. Those were tunes I left the stadium humming and have enjoyed listening to on CD. You are right though, we are not really hearing tunes straight down like we used to back in the 70's and 80's, but we also are seeing selections of music in the programs that are too wide in scope to be played straight down... unless of course everyone plays popular music or maybe some jazz charts (which would have to be cut down and snipped).

2- Nothing is being done to ensure the long term survival of the acivity. The current problems with the economy will only hurt more corps under the current touring system. Gas is at an all time high, insurance, fees, rentals, and now corps have to pay to us music. But instead of finding ways to reduce cost they add amplifaction which cost money. And while its not mandotory we all know to win you have yo keep up with the jones..or Blue Devils or Cavies. It hurts the smaller corps. It hurts the larger corps. Until a top 12 corps doesn't field for a year or more no one will care that the Southwinds, Cap Regs and others are not around anymore.

People ARE trying to do things to ensure the activity. There are programs being cut and budgets being sliced all over the country and the fact that we are not losing more corps should tell you something about the long term viability and brand name of DCI. Does that mean we are safe? No. But it does mean that the activity should make it through these tough times. Even the NHL folded for a while and made it back.

A few more notes:

One of those things you mentioned to adding to the cost is the price that Hal Leonard and other publishers are making corps pay for music. One way corps have cut down on this cost is by doing original music, which many people complain about for not being known or "catchy".... it is a bit of a lose lose situation.

You mentioned the cost of Electronics as being an inhibitor to corps survival. I couldn't disagree more. First off, electronics are not that expensive in the grand scheme of a drum corps budget. A really maxed out electronic set-up would be about 15k. That is not that money in a drum corps budget. More importantly, it can help some of the smaller corps come across as bigger / fuller / more mature sounding if the electronics are used correctly. So, it can actually help some of the smaller / lower tier corps if they use them well.

Finally, you mentioned CR and Southwind not being taken care of. Southwind's revenue stream dried up and CR was mismanaged. DCI stepped in to help CR by forcing them to take a year off and get things right (like they did for troop). CR's problems have been due to a combination of a reduction in revenue and financial mismanagement. So, I don't know what DCI or the rest of the activity could have done for them except fund these corps with some imaginary revenue source.

3- Its not really about the kids. Yes I know it was never about the kids or this corps or that corps is about the kids. But in general its all about winning. Directors, instructors, parents being to say they were involved in a winning corps. Would I start a corps if I had the money, yes. But I won't have them practing every day. I would let them see the sights. Play at an amusement park so they could get in free. And yes compete at shows. The year I marched I was in 18 states ands 33 cities. And got one day off. So the only time I got to see anything beside a practice field or staduim was when we travelled. And how many kids are over 18. We need to stop saying this its about the kids. Its about winning.

I disagree completely. It IS about the kids. The fact that we have higher insurance rates, better (and safer) buses, physicians and sometimes even medical teams, nutritionists, and larger admin teams points to the fact that corps are doing what they can to operate in a manner that is best for the kids. Unfortunately, these things cost more.

As far as the sight seeing thing goes, I don't think kids get into drum corps wanting any of that. They are there to rehearse. They are there to work. They are there to compete. BUT if you do want to start a corps that doesn't rehearse that much than I am sure you could... just dont expect to have a lot of members in it. Those kinds of kids that don't want to rehearse, work, and compete don't want to be in drum corps... they do summer camp instead.

4- An issue I had with some of the people in DCP. Recently there was a thread about a blind girl in the Bosie band. Some mean and gruel things were said and it took 6 pages to be shut down. I write something and it takes 2 post. I'm thinking is this the kind of discussion board I want to be associated with? Get over it you say? Until you been called cruel and nasty names you get over it. Until you been well until it happens to you you won't understand.

That thread was not good, BUT I don't think people realized the girl was blind until things got pretty far a long. I am not sure though since I never had any desire to read any of it.

Has the activity gotten better. Of course. All things gets better, sports players are bigger and stronger, car are safer and drum corps are doing things they didn't years ago. But lets stop thinking about today and start worrying about tomorrow. If Kodak can change then so can the activity.

This is where I am really confused. You talk about the activity changing, but you also mentioned how things were better in the past. So you don't want it to evolve, you want it to go backwards.

[roosevelt]

I know they're not obligated to take a younger kid but I put like these a kid 15-16 who is better than a college student just because he practices hard and get pretty good instruction, just he can't march pretty good well for that reason we have camps.

This is one of the most incomprehensible sentences I have ever seen in my life. Tomorrow you need to find your high school english teachers and ask them for serious help.

When you say lower tier I think thats bad every single drum corp is working their butts off to put a crowd pleasant show so for my opinion every drum corps should deserve respect it doesn't matter in which position they finish. For me is not about winning is about the expirience, and I got a great expirience last year marching and I have a bunch of years left and I don't care in which place we finish is just the expirence that counts.

Yes. it is all about the experience, yet you do seem bitter that you are not marching one of the top tier corps by your previous statements.

So there's no such thing as a lower tier corps because everyone is doing something that only the dedicated can do it

Yes there is. Top tier corps are the ones that finish at the top. Lower tier corps are the ones that don't. I understand the "we are the world" mentality, but in a competitive activity there are competitive tiers.

[CrownStarr]

Possitive? What's positive about corps these days? For what it costs me to do 5 years BITD, that'll cover 1/2 of 1 year. I used to tour 90+ days, and end in late august. Days off in British Columbia, Texas, and Ontario on the same year. Compete in regionals (three major shows on ONE day in different "regions") Each with a top twelve and finalist night show. Most being several day events. At a costs of maybe $5 a day for the members. Fast forward 20 years and it's now $50 a day. Regionals are a one town, one day event. Quarter finals, well, does that even happen now? Do you even go to school with the guy you're marching next to?

Who says I want to? Unfortunately, my school doesn't have a marching band and so doesn't have a whole lot of people going into DCI. However, if it did, I'm not sure I'd want to spend another whole summer marching with those people. It's nothing negative towards them, but one of my favorite social aspects of marching last summer was getting to know and perform with fellow students from all around the US, rather than just concentrated in one geographic area.

[luis]

This is one of the most incomprehensible sentences I have ever seen in my life. Tomorrow you need to find your high school english teachers and ask them for serious help.

Yes. it is all about the experience, yet you do seem bitter that you are not marching one of the top tier corps by your previous statements.

Yes there is. Top tier corps are the ones that finish at the top. Lower tier corps are the ones that don't. I understand the "we are the world" mentality, but in a competitive activity there are competitive tiers.

Sorry, for making a mistake on english I don't think everyone comes from South America and change from Spanish to English sorry if I make a mistake but telling I need help come on I have better grades than kids who can speak the language

[Blackstar]

Since I'm now the most hated person on DCP I want to clarify some things. I've been a fan since 1980 when I my first show on TV. I marched in 84 with the Crossmen and pushed people to march when they had the chance. I wanted my son to march until he had foot issues. I wanted my daughter to march until the economy collapsed. I do love the activity which is why I get so frustrated.

Many people have pointed out that I don't speak for everyone then they turn around and speak for everyone. So YOU don't want to sight see. Fine, But how many chances would I and others get to go to Canton OH, march at the hall of Fame Staduim and not see the football Hall of Fame? Drive past Nigaria Falls and take 2-3 hours and see the falls? Get a chance to walk around Chicago but we can stop can do a show for the drum people? So instead of 3 off days out of 90 you have 6-7-8-? How much would that hurt?

Drum Corps is really becoming the sport of the upper middle class. Yes I now all the people who worked to pay for themselves. Guess what? When I marched Ieft a job that was helping my mother and with her blessing went. Mr. Robinson said I didn't have to pay because I started late and they needed bodies. I hate to speak ill of the dead but once the season was over he give me a bill for tour fees and would not give me a finalist patch until I paid. I don't know how many people can afford to pay 3-4K to march. Yes some corps get hundreds..maybe thousands of people to audition but how many corps are there compared to high and college bands. 20K trying out is a drop in the bucket.

When I speak of kids Imean youth under 18. My 18yo daughter gets mad when I call her a kid.

But the problem is not having enough people to march, the issue is not having enough corps for people to march in. We had 42 active DCI corps at championship last year. In 1999 we had 69 all told with D1-2-3. Don't get mad when I say things like the activity may be dead by 2033 or sooner. There needs to a way to reduce the barrier to entry. I understand things are expensive. Going from 128 to 150 does not help the activity. Feeling seats is the worst reason to do it. Now you have to feed, dress and equipment 22 more people just to utilize the full capacity of threee buses...really? Where is the savings. Are my facts wrong? please point it out. I'll be the frist to stand up and say I was wrong.

I mentioned CR and Southwind. Go to corpsrep and look at all the corps in the 5 years that we have lost. What would be the excuse if Phantom took a year off or folded? I really wonder how people would react.

Sometimes getting people to think is the most positive thing a person can do.

[Jeff Ream]

I know over the last ....while or so it appears...no all my post have been negative. I hate being a negative person. I'm usually ther kind of person that tries to find solutions. And I think thats wre some of my frustrations come from with the activity. So I'm going to list my issues in no particular order

1- The music. As I write this I'm listening to Chuck Mangione's Land of Make Believe. I first heard this song from a drum corps. Alot of music I like now I got from corps. My favorite song ...Appalichain (sic) Spring from corps. I found music from Aaron Copeland to Dave Brubek that I wouldn't have. I haven't heard anything in the last 15 years that makes me want to find the orginal except 2 pieces, Canyon and Pollock. I think the "snippet" arranging is hurting things. There is very little (at least to me) memorable music.

2- Nothing is being done to ensure the long term survival of the acivity. The current problems with the economy will only hurt more corps under the current touring system. Gas is at an all time high, insurance, fees, rentals, and now corps have to pay to us music. But instead of finding ways to reduce cost they add amplifaction which cost money. And while its not mandotory we all know to win you have yo keep up with the jones..or Blue Devils or Cavies. It hurts the smaller corps. It hurts the larger corps. Until a top 12 corps doesn't field for a year or more no one will care that the Southwinds, Cap Regs and others are not around anymore.

3- Its not really about the kids. Yes I know it was never about the kids or this corps or that corps is about the kids. But in general its all about winning. Directors, instructors, parents being to say they were involved in a winning corps. Would I start a corps if I had the money, yes. But I won't have them practing every day. I would let them see the sights. Play at an amusement park so they could get in free. And yes compete at shows. The year I marched I was in 18 states ands 33 cities. And got one day off. So the only time I got to see anything beside a practice field or staduim was when we travelled. And how many kids are over 18. We need to stop saying this its about the kids. Its about winning.

4- An issue I had with some of the people in DCP. Recently there was a thread about a blind girl in the Bosie band. Some mean and gruel things were said and it took 6 pages to be shut down. I write something and it takes 2 post. I'm thinking is this the kind of discussion board I want to be associated with? Get over it you say? Until you been called cruel and nasty names you get over it. Until you been well until it happens to you you won't understand.

Has the activity gotten better. Of course. All things gets better, sports players are bigger and stronger, car are safer and drum corps are doing things they didn't years ago. But lets stop thinking about today and start worrying about tomorrow. If Kodak can change then so can the activity.

1) many of us agree...maybe it's in how you say it

2...many of us have said this too...maybe it's in how you say it

3...many of us have said it, tho I don't think it's 100% as bad as say it is. but..maybe it's in how you say it

4) a lot of it depends on how you say it, and also how long it takes for someone to hit the report button. The mods do not scour every thread looking for something to delete. it has to be reported 95% of the time.

5) again, many of us have agreed with you time and time again. My hunch is the delivery hurts your message and turns readers away

[Jeff Ream]

Possitive? What's positive about corps these days? For what it costs me to do 5 years BITD, that'll cover 1/2 of 1 year. I used to tour 90+ days, and end in late august. Days off in British Columbia, Texas, and Ontario on the same year. Compete in regionals (three major shows on ONE day in different "regions") Each with a top twelve and finalist night show. Most being several day events. At a costs of maybe $5 a day for the members. Fast forward 20 years and it's now $50 a day. Regionals are a one town, one day event. Quarter finals, well, does that even happen now? Do you even go to school with the guy you're marching next to?

Possitive? For the costs of what I pay on cable, internet, laundry, and perhaps electric bill PER YEAR. One kid MIGHT get to do drumcorps for ONE season. Which MIGHT be 1/2 of the experience I got as a kid. At least in terms of number of days out there doing it. Versus fund raising, recruiting, other than why isn't there a horn in my hands and why am I not playing it things. Trust me, I'd LOVE to be more possitive. But about what? That it still exists to some limited extent. And if I'm not an hour late to that one event a year in my region, I might get to see something that kind of resembles what I got to do?

I'd pay to see you be positive

[roosevelt]

I mentioned CR and Southwind. Go to corpsrep and look at all the corps in the 5 years that we have lost. What would be the excuse if Phantom took a year off or folded? I really wonder how people would react.

Phantom nearly did in 1998.

[lindap]

Who says I want to? Unfortunately, my school doesn't have a marching band and so doesn't have a whole lot of people going into DCI. However, if it did, I'm not sure I'd want to spend another whole summer marching with those people. It's nothing negative towards them, but one of my favorite social aspects of marching last summer was getting to know and perform with fellow students from all around the US, rather than just concentrated in one geographic area.

I like your statement. My school didn't have a marching band; it had orchestra, jazz band, choir, drama, fine arts, etc. Our high school football rivals at Malvern Collegiate had a marching band. At school and drum corps I met completely different groups of people. High school and drum corps is all I did and loved. I graduated from HS in 74 in another country in another time yet I can relate to your post. Thank you :-) edit to change High to Collegiate

Edited February 3, 2010 by lindap