DCI Judges to CONFER

[Jeff Ream]

...according to empirical and anecdotal evidence.

And if there has been such a big drop-off (and I admit there has likely been SOME decrease in attendance over the past 5 years) without it affecting the bottom line in a significantly negative way, how does that make amps a stupid decision? It doesn't make them a good decision per se, but certainly not the "stupid" decision that so many have decided them to be. To me, amps have been a negligible decision. If DCI did something that drove attendance through the roof while revenues shrunk, that is something I would consider a "stupid" decision.

If anyone believes that raw attendance numbers are more important to the health of the activity than revenue numbers based on that attendance, you are certainly free to do so. But again, I just don't understand that way of thinking. (Obviously, attendance is important, don't think that I'm saying it's not).

To move slightly back towards the topic, DCI looks to be alive and well and moving in the right direction to me, so I trust leadership to make appropriate decisions for the well-being of the activity (as they have demonstrated in the past). Do I think this judging change is a stellar idea? Not necessarily. But the doom and gloom is SO unwarranted (especially considering it was something that was only discussed!!!), as it almost always is. Call me a cheerleader or whatever, but I just don't see this falling sky that so many love to talk about, and I think some of these reactions are more than a little ridiculous and often completely unwarranted.

I think I've asked this before but it's worth asking again: to those distrusting of DCI leadership, what have they done in the past 10 years to make you so distrusting??

more attendance equals more revenue, more swag purchased. if attendance falls, you can keep jacking prices up, but at some point the market will have it's breaking point.

a classic example is WWE and their pay per views. prices have risen $10-20 a month for the last 3 years, and buys are down, especially here in the US. The only thing saving them is the higher price and overseas markets getting added.

if they had just the US, today Vinnie Mac'd be a hurting pup

[Richard]

According to DCI!

Since you insist on steering into this off-topic ditch....let me remind you that it was DCI's own press releases that gave us the attendance figures demonstrating the 24% drop in average attendance at DCI focus shows in 2007 vs. 2006....this, after claims of attendance uptrends as recently as 2004. But 2004 was the year amplification began to appear. As always, feel free to hold the opinion that these two coincidental events are not linked....but you cannot look at a single-year 24% attendance drop and proclaim there was "no significant negative impact".

I thought the 24% was for one show specifically, and the attendance per show went down by some other percentage? I could be wrong.

You are mixing two (or more) things together here. While one stupid decision (amps) was taking effect, DCI was making several other smart decisions (the live theatercast of quarterfinals, the Fan Network, and untold cost-effectiveness measures behind the scenes) that offset whatever revenue was lost to declining attendance.

But you only believe that amps were stupid. And my contention is that how stupid could they have been given the state of the activity and the financial success it’s achieved over the years since that rule passed?

Yes, DCI is doing a lot of other business savvy moves to enhance their financial position, but how significant can this loss of attendance be if they’re not feeling it in their books?

Well, the bottom line is the bottom line, of course. But you can only squeeze so much blood from a rock. Ultimately, loss of attendance/fanbase will cost DCI in lost revenue and in loss of other resources (volunteers, donors, fundraisers)....it affects the bottom line directly and profoundly.

Depends on how substantial this loss has been over the past few years and if it will continue at that rate or an increased rate going forward. If it’s ~24% as you say it is, then where the hell is all this revenue coming from? (see numbers below)

Well, I'm not on the "doom and gloom" bus for this one. But I'll ask again....what's the justification for this?

Ask DCI? I’m not sure. Like I said, I don’t necessarily agree with it or think it’s a stellar move for them. But I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt (especially considering it’s only an idea at this point!)

revenue numbers have gone with ticket prices going up and DCi having a hand in running more shows...that doesnt mean that attendance is up.

You’re telling me ticket prices made the 400k increase from 04 to 05? The 100k increase from 05 to 06? The 400k increase from 06 to 07? The 600k increase from 07 to 08?

They’ve also kept show expenses relatively steady despite adding more shows during that time period.

From 04 to 08 DCI saw a 91% increase in show revenue. Assuming attendance dropped even 20% during that time period, they’d need to raise ticket prices (or otherwise increase merchandise/sponsorship income) by over 230%. I think my math is right. Is that what you’re saying?

And if you think it’s closer to 20% per year over a 5 year period, then we’re talking about a total decrease of something like 67%. I think it’s safe to say the attendance fluctuations during that period are non-linear.

Again, I see no cause for concern about DCI’s decisions in these numbers. You can claim that it’s plausible that DCI is losing a significant percentage of total fans while somehow offsetting that loss and making more revenue on top of that, but you have to connect quite a few (unrealistic, IMO) dots to make that happen.

[JimF-LowBari]

But you only believe that amps were stupid. And my contention is that how stupid could they have been given the state of the activity and the financial success it’s achieved over the years since that rule passed?

And you're saying amps brought some financial success to DCI? What is that based on considering there were other changes going on during that time?

Open question to all: When did the theater broadcasts begin and how a about a quick synopsis of DCI running more shows as I'm in the dark on that one

But you only believe that From 04 to 08 DCI saw a 91% increase in show revenue. Assuming attendance dropped even 20% during that time period, they’d need to raise ticket prices (or otherwise increase merchandise/sponsorship income) by over 230%. I think my math is right. Is that what you’re saying?.

Or maybe they raised the number of shows run by DCI.....

Edited March 19, 2010 by JimF-3rdBari

[audiodb]

I thought the 24% was for one show specifically, and the attendance per show went down by some other percentage? I could be wrong.

Checked again....it was a 24% drop across all focus shows.

But you only believe that amps were stupid. And my contention is that how stupid could they have been given the state of the activity and the financial success it’s achieved over the years since that rule passed?

Yes, DCI is doing a lot of other business savvy moves to enhance their financial position, but how significant can this loss of attendance be if they’re not feeling it in their books?

Seems like the stupidity of amps is roughly equal to the intelligence of all of DCI's recent good ideas combined, according to your numbers.

[Jeff Ream]

I thought the 24% was for one show specifically, and the attendance per show went down by some other percentage? I could be wrong.

But you only believe that amps were stupid. And my contention is that how stupid could they have been given the state of the activity and the financial success it's achieved over the years since that rule passed?

Yes, DCI is doing a lot of other business savvy moves to enhance their financial position, but how significant can this loss of attendance be if they're not feeling it in their books?

Depends on how substantial this loss has been over the past few years and if it will continue at that rate or an increased rate going forward. If it's ~24% as you say it is, then where the hell is all this revenue coming from? (see numbers below)

Ask DCI? I'm not sure. Like I said, I don't necessarily agree with it or think it's a stellar move for them. But I'll give them the benefit of the doubt (especially considering it's only an idea at this point!)

You're telling me ticket prices made the 400k increase from 04 to 05? The 100k increase from 05 to 06? The 400k increase from 06 to 07? The 600k increase from 07 to 08?

They've also kept show expenses relatively steady despite adding more shows during that time period.

From 04 to 08 DCI saw a 91% increase in show revenue. Assuming attendance dropped even 20% during that time period, they'd need to raise ticket prices (or otherwise increase merchandise/sponsorship income) by over 230%. I think my math is right. Is that what you're saying?

And if you think it's closer to 20% per year over a 5 year period, then we're talking about a total decrease of something like 67%. I think it's safe to say the attendance fluctuations during that period are non-linear.

Again, I see no cause for concern about DCI's decisions in these numbers. You can claim that it's plausible that DCI is losing a significant percentage of total fans while somehow offsetting that loss and making more revenue on top of that, but you have to connect quite a few (unrealistic, IMO) dots to make that happen.

no ticket prices alone aren't the cause, I'd imagine the fan network helped, and in those years, higher attendance at places like Denver and LA had to help. Let's face it, 27000 fans at $100 or so a head comes out to a lot more than 21000 fans at $100 or so a head.

and i don't think it's just amps...it's all that followed with amps as well as show design complaints

[Richard]

Or maybe they raised the number of shows run by DCI.....

Total show expenses were only $100k higher in 2008 than compared to 2004, whereas total revenue increased by $1.4m, regardless of the number of shows.

Seems like the stupidity of amps is roughly equal to the intelligence of all of DCI's recent good ideas combined, according to your numbers.

More like the intelligence of the good ideas outweighs whatever ill-effects of amps exist by 91%. Regardless, amps aren't killing the activity. I don't think they're helping it either. They're just kind of there.

I think it's worth noting that a lot of the good things mentioned (Fan Network, theater broacasts) were done by the DCI entity, and the "stupid" decisions were made by the member corps. Maybe the member corps should be feeling these ill-effects on their bottom line?

[Jeff Ream]

Total show expenses were only $100k higher in 2008 than compared to 2004, whereas total revenue increased by $1.4m, regardless of the number of shows.

More like the intelligence of the good ideas outweighs whatever ill-effects of amps exist by 91%. Regardless, amps aren't killing the activity. I don't think they're helping it either. They're just kind of there.

I think it's worth noting that a lot of the good things mentioned (Fan Network, theater broacasts) were done by the DCI entity, and the "stupid" decisions were made by the member corps. Maybe the member corps should be feeling these ill-effects on their bottom line?

wait...isn't DCI the member corps? so to me, they get priase and blame.

[JimF-LowBari]

Total show expenses were only $100k higher in 2008 than compared to 2004, whereas total revenue increased by $1.4m, regardless of the number of shows.

OK, anyone have a definition of "shows"? Does that include the theater broadcasts and Fan Network? And when would those numbers show up in the revenue figures.

Just trying to get some details on what exactly we are talking about.

[Grumpy]

Last I knew, DCI still hasn't released finals attendance for the last two championships-so we don't know how much attendance dropped, and after last year in the Can, there are plenty of people that aren't willing to give it a second chance, open roof or not. Also, didn't the "Countdown" cinecasts start about 5 years ago?

[Richard]

and i don't think it's just amps...it's all that followed with amps as well as show design complaints

well this is where things really get messy when complaining about DCI. It's one thing to not like the product on the field or the instrumentation, but the prevailing wisdom around here seems to be that "I don't like it, my 8 friends don't like it, and 30 people I talked to don't like it so DCI is killing itself with stupid decisions". It's not enough to say "I don't like it because I don't like it", most feel the need to justify it by saying "I don't like it because....it's killing the activity! DCI is run by buffoons!" and then use every decision made by DCI as a potential point of contention to prove their point that DCI is doing it wrong.

Some recent examples of this include:

- Complaining about the decision to open the roof

- Complaining about San Antonio being OUTSIDE of a dome

Those are two things that many, MANY here on DCP have clamored for: drum corps outside. Then it happens and more complaints arise. It’s easy to find things to complain about and second-guess when you’re so actively looking for them. I listen to a ton of sports talk radio and the things people complain about are absurd, such as Paul Pierce and Terry Francona, proven champions, but those that don’t like them for whatever reason will second guess them and deride their decisions and actions at every opportunity. I see a lot of the same thing happening here.

Whereas those that are satisfied with the product on the field and think the recent changes to instrumentation aren't a HUGE deal, think DCI is doing alright. Not great, but alright. How many people would put all these decisions made by DCI under a microscope if they liked more of the shows? Would you care nearly as much? Would you second-guess and complain as much? Perhaps some would, but not the majority.

Really what I'm trying to say is that there are a lot of people who disagree with decisions made by DCI because they simply don't agree with them. If those people didn't have such a problem with the current product, I would be willing to bet they'd be considerably less critical of DCI.

wait...isn't DCI the member corps? so to me, they get priase and blame.

There are two predominant entities to DCI. One is member corps, who vote on rules and things like that. The other is the DCI organization, who's purpose is to provide competition opportunities at major shows to those member corps, promote the activity and maintain a judging staff. The second piece is it's own business, although it is interwoven with the first. However, the second piece doesn't determine show design, adjudication criteria or instrumentation (the things with which most of the malcontents have gripes).

So it's an important distinction, because there are drum corps who do not use electronic instruments and design more "fan-friendly" shows, but they often get lumped in with "DCI" in such statements as "DCI is marching band", "DCI killed drum corps", so on and so forth.

The first group can run their organizations in any way they see fit. If an individual is so opposed to what The Cadets or Blue Devils are doing on the field that they want to disassociate themselves with the activity, then that’s fine. But if that person cares about the activity, they will find other ways to support it, and support those groups that share their vision for what drum corps should be.

The only other real recourse is to start your own corps, build it up and then you can run it the way you want. G bugles, acoustic pit, hell symmetrical drill and grounded pit too if you want. Will you be competitive? Probably not. Will you be a fan favorite? If you think that’s what fans want to see then they’ll surely support you, right? If you think that’s what kids want to perform then they’ll surely audition, right? If your fan support is so great, you’ve bought some of the used G bugles floating around out there and you haven’t spent money on amps or electronics, then you’ll be able to reduce tuition and encourage more kids to march there, right?

Unfortunately, that’s beyond the realm of possibilities for most. So what’s left? Complain on the internet. Insinuate that you know what corps directors and the DCI organization should be doing better than they do. Profess that the activity is rapidly losing it’s fan base and is “dying”. There is a better way to “fix” drum corps if you truly consider it “broken” and headed down the wrong path.

tl;dr version: the complaints about DCI leadership are unwarranted and largely driven by a general disagreement with decisions made and the product presented, more so than by legitimately poor decisions that are actually harming the activity.

What a diatribe, eh?

OK, anyone have a definition of "shows"? Does that include the theater broadcasts and Fan Network? And when would those numbers show up in the revenue figures.

Just trying to get some details on what exactly we are talking about.

The thread that I linked to before has much much more information about what the numbers mean, look for the posts between myself and audiodb