supersop Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 What's harder?1) Simply marching around and playing.......or 2) Marching, running, hopping, crabbing, dancing, emoteing, acting, interacting, posing and playing? Judges award difficulty and the latter is harder to do. This alone is why the activity is going in this direction. Don't be surprised if in 10 years a corps show looks like a gymnastics routine with silks and instruments. The corps that care not about high achievement in judging criteria will be the ones to deliver the old-school isolated caption-type shows. Others that want in semis, finals or on the medal podium? Get used to further visual integration, because this train won't go in reverse. In some cases ... I would have to disagree. Marching and playing PERFECTLY with perfect style, execution, etc etc etc ... can be WAY harder than moving at supersonic speed and adding hopping, crabbing, dancing and emoting to the point that so much is going on that PERFECTION whether achieved or not can't even be comprehended due to the speed. Blowing through sets, leaning into stepoffs .. the finer points of marching execution are no longer judged .. and frankly not many corps march with any attempt at perfected technique. I also think that your point #1 PERFECTLY can be more impactful and effective than point #2. Just sayin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CloudHype Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 Speaking as a small time visual designer. I like WGI, I like the integrated guard of modern drum corps. I don't like ruining the music to account for more transition time because a football field is not a basketball court. My problem is not the integration it is the butchering of music to make a transition work. This stems from the winterguard activity and its focus on clear, well thought out, non forced transitions. Who is blame... the visual designers? IMO.... No. Not totally. I blame the music guys and the music judging community too. I've wrote shows that had quality arrangers that thought visually... Chuck Naffier comes to mind. I think we all agree, Chuck writes a melody. He also gives you plenty of time to transition on and off the field. Writing to his score for 3 years was a joy, his music makes it easy for us designers AND enjoyable for fans. I wont name names but we know corps that "chop and paste" their music to make for a smooth visual transition. This has lead to many visually superior shows with musical books that have 4 minutes of transitions. I don't enjoy these types of shows as a fan. Currently I'm writing for a band that has this same "ANTI WGI" attitude that many on here have. They went and hired a "band arranger" and not a "drum corps arranger"... Their words, not mine. The music was written with only the music in mind and let me tell you, there is no transition time or consideration about baring the music for visual effectiveness and ease of marching. I will say, the visual program will suffer because the lack of consideration about thinking visually from the arranger. Trust me, you guys would complain about it when you see it and not enjoy the show because of it. I mean really... Really... this is a marching group, you have to think visually to an extent or else we just need to bring out chairs and stands and have "loud music concerts". When the judging and designing community stops awarding shows that don't develop musically, the design will change. It will not happen by changing the way we judge visual, it will happen by changing the music standards. Some visual designers will have to... GROW and ADAPT as a result. The other reason why us visual designers get a bad rap is quite frankly, it is a growing art that is YOUNG. Music has be around for centuries, drill... a few decades (asymmetrical... 1980) . The visual side of Drum Corps/ Marching Band is developing at a faster rate because we are still in the early stages of its development. We took band, we learned the notes, we learned music... Most of us never took a class pertaining to anything visual. Maybe an art class, a few might of danced. I saw no staging classes in High School but my school did have music theory. Most of us don't know the difference in the types of staging but do notice styles of music. People notice "cool drill" but we miss the little things that we all pretty much notice in music. The above being said, have good music. Have music that works visually and don't ruin its development for the sake of visual development. [Personal Rant] The term WGI is used as loosely as General Effect is used. WGI is not a negative, it is indoor pageantry at the highest level. Also, the terms BOA is used interchangeably with the term WGI... BOA is a contest. In my home state of Alabama, DCI is used on these terms, and trust me, they are talking "old school" because directors will use names of corps that folded in the mid 80's as examples of why drumcorps is bad. [/Rant] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lindap Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 (edited) What I've seen on FN in the last 2 days is texture and an attempt at 3 dimensions on a large green field to augment and enhance the music. edit: feel the music; it's easier to be moved by it in a gym; the field requires mime, big gestures, big flags and sing when you spin :-) Edited July 13, 2010 by lindap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersop Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 Speaking as a small time visual designer. I like WGI, I like the integrated guard of modern drum corps. I don't like ruining the music to account for more transition time because a football field is not a basketball court. My problem is not the integration it is the butchering of music to make a transition work. This stems from the winterguard activity and its focus on clear, well thought out, non forced transitions. Who is blame... the visual designers? IMO.... No. Not totally. I blame the music guys and the music judging community too. I've wrote shows that had quality arrangers that thought visually... Chuck Naffier comes to mind. I think we all agree, Chuck writes a melody. He also gives you plenty of time to transition on and off the field. Writing to his score for 3 years was a joy, his music makes it easy for us designers AND enjoyable for fans. I wont name names but we know corps that "chop and paste" their music to make for a smooth visual transition. This has lead to many visually superior shows with musical books that have 4 minutes of transitions. I don't enjoy these types of shows as a fan. Currently I'm writing for a band that has this same "ANTI WGI" attitude that many on here have. They went and hired a "band arranger" and not a "drum corps arranger"... Their words, not mine. The music was written with only the music in mind and let me tell you, there is no transition time or consideration about baring the music for visual effectiveness and ease of marching. I will say, the visual program will suffer because the lack of consideration about thinking visually from the arranger. Trust me, you guys would complain about it when you see it and not enjoy the show because of it. I mean really... Really... this is a marching group, you have to think visually to an extent or else we just need to bring out chairs and stands and have "loud music concerts". When the judging and designing community stops awarding shows that don't develop musically, the design will change. It will not happen by changing the way we judge visual, it will happen by changing the music standards. Some visual designers will have to... GROW and ADAPT as a result. The other reason why us visual designers get a bad rap is quite frankly, it is a growing art that is YOUNG. Music has be around for centuries, drill... a few decades (asymmetrical... 1980) . The visual side of Drum Corps/ Marching Band is developing at a faster rate because we are still in the early stages of its development. We took band, we learned the notes, we learned music... Most of us never took a class pertaining to anything visual. Maybe an art class, a few might of danced. I saw no staging classes in High School but my school did have music theory. Most of us don't know the difference in the types of staging but do notice styles of music. People notice "cool drill" but we miss the little things that we all pretty much notice in music. The above being said, have good music. Have music that works visually and don't ruin its development for the sake of visual development. [Personal Rant] The term WGI is used as loosely as General Effect is used. WGI is not a negative, it is indoor pageantry at the highest level. Also, the terms BOA is used interchangeably with the term WGI... BOA is a contest. In my home state of Alabama, DCI is used on these terms, and trust me, they are talking "old school" because directors will use names of corps that folded in the mid 80's as examples of why drumcorps is bad. [/Rant] Bravo! Some excellent points, not yet brought up in this thread. Speaking from experience, I couldn't agree more with you about music arrangers who write with the visual in mind. The most successful shows I've been involved with on the marching band level were shows where I did the musical arrangement and wrote the drill. That was in the early 90's, but I feel you completely. I guess I've always butted heads with judges like Mark Hart who try to force an ideology on designers because that's what THEY want to see. It's part of the reason I got out of arranging and designing ... I just do not agree that mass integration at all times is necessary, nor effective. The music always came first, with the visual being a complete supporting package to the musical book. The visual judges who were DCI affiliated always wanted more integration, more featuring of the guard as a focal point... blah blah blah. What ever happened to proper staging of the instruments on the field so that the musical balance was perfect? What happened to giving every other section their moment to shine without making them a constant focal point? Then when you DO need a focal point ... and ONLY one focal point ... the judges gripe that there isn't enough layers or additional focal points going on at that moment. I've always held the belief that music has rests for a reason ...... silence is effective. The same thing translates to visual ... and I always thought that execution came before anything else. If it couldn't be perfected PERFECTLY ... I didn't write it or allow it in the overall package. Sure, sometimes you have to put in an upper tessitura visual or musical phrase in order to show demand and challenge your students ... but there is a limit to what can be perfected!!!!!!!! The limits now are so blurred that mediocrity is now acceptable and even praised as excellence. I know I'm going in a few different directions from the OP .......... but it's all relevant. I just wish that a return to true excellence and the pursuit of perfection coupled with excellent writing would return to being the norm in DCI. That would make the main fan base ultimately alot happier with the over product that DCI has to offer today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piper Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 Many good points on this thread, which begs the question as to wheather or not you write the drill to fit the music or the music to fit the drill. I've never done either so I wouldn't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CloudHype Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 (edited) Many good points on this thread, which begs the question as to wheather or not you write the drill to fit the music or the music to fit the drill. I've never done either so I wouldn't know. The answer is... Yes. A well designed show will do both. The music arranger is always the first in the process, a great one will think visually and let the music develop naturally. Most music have great transitions built in them, the problem is when we go from one mood to another inside a song without letting the music develop. An arranger needs to be aware of what a marching unit needs to do and have the time to transition properly to do it. That said... I lean 90% towards music first. The music dictates what I write, therefore... I write to the music. The baritones need to be in the correct spot, a well placed tuba section can add some punch and create a better balance, a young tuba section during a walking bass line might need to be by the percussion, etc... However a well coordinated show needs to be well planed out musically. All elements of a design team need to be communicating to get this done. Coordinated events need to be planed out and the music needs to work to allow that to happen but at the same time, you don't have to ruin the music to make it happen. Might be as simple as adding 8 counts to a modulation, repeating a verse, baring the music in to a meter that is simpler to write to and makes more sense visually (happens often) . I've asked for a total of 16 counts to be added to music in my 6 years of designing. All of them during percussion fills. As far as writing drill first... NO!!!!!! I would never do such a thing. The whole act of writing music so that a cool move can happen reminds of a line used in comedy writing: It might be your best joke you've ever written but if it doesn't fit into your set/script (routine) , it is not the right joke. Edited July 13, 2010 by CloudHype Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerriTroop Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 While I agree to some extent with most of the points made regarding visual content, the one element of indoor that has become most frustrating to me, personally, is the synths. I will not elaborate because that argument has been beaten to death in other threads and there's really no need to rehash them here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeeJay Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 I totally disagree with the original post. Winter Guard and Indoor Percussion have enhanced the Drum Corps activity in a great way. Color Guard now truly is a full part of Drum Corps. It was not up until the mid nineties. Visualization of the music has become more important, but that was the intention of drum corps in the first place. Otherwise it would be concert band. The fact that Percussion & Color Guard kids get a chance to broaden their horizons in the winter and come out trained means it contributes to Drum Corps. Many designers do both. Name me one Color Guard designer of the past 20 years that was successful in Drum Corps and did not do Winter Guard ever. They don't exist. Also Visual judges get more exposure because of it.....good training. I only see benefits! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeeJay Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 Many good points on this thread, which begs the question as to wheather or not you write the drill to fit the music or the music to fit the drill. I've never done either so I wouldn't know. Does it matter? A good drill is still a good drill in the end......a bad one....well..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r3vo Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 Disagree - I think that corps today put on much more visually sophisticated shows (both in guard and brass) and that the WGI percussion explosion has generated drummers that play stuff that we could only dream about back when. (That said, my beef is with *music* arranging in corps right now, not so much visual...) Mike Agree 110%! Being a percussionist, I think the percussion books are starting to get WAY too thick. As far as the guards go, I like it MUCH better than the way it used to be. Makes the shows very interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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