What the heck has happened to PR since 2008?

[big old drummer man]

I mean, the percussion section has been bringing it consistently since 03...

[Tony Flores]

I wish they'd go back to King or switch to Yamaha for brass, the difference in the Quantum is noticeable. IMHO Regiment and Madison have one thing in common...the Fans come before the placement.

[saxfreq1128]

I'm also not trying to bash Phantom, but...

So many of the errors people griped about with their 2009 production were ALL OVER THE PLACE in their 2008 show!

I have never believed that Spartacus should have won that evening, and, in my opinion, their relative demise these past few seasons all but proves my point.

To more succinctly answer your question, I think they've always had the problems they have now (visual, color guard, overall design, etc.)...it's just that there is a lot more competition up top, with Crown and Bluecoats now in the mix! Where is Regiment now...around 6th? Take away these two corps, and they're in 4th, which was about where they were from 2003-2007.

Do tell. Specific things in mind?

[Tez]

I'm not going to comment on visual, but in brass performance, I honestly do think Phantom has fallen off quite a bit since 2008.

Phantom sounded great tonight (live at Quarters), but others sounded better. In 2008 when I heard Phantom's brass sound, I thought it was far above all the other corps'. Tonight, I thought BD, Bluecoats, Cadets, Crown, and possibly even Cavaliers had fuller, richer sounds. Even last year I would have only ranked Crown above Phantom in terms of brass sound quality.

I'm not sure what it is. Maybe it's the arrangements..... but that seems unlikely, I think this years arrangements couldn't be much better. Maybe they are lacking talent level... but why? After the championship, you would think kids would be flying to Rockford in droves to audition. But frankly, the brassline did seem a little more immature than the current "top 5." There were just certain parts of the show which were not as clear as they could have been, and certain portions where they could have been a little more musical. Even their loudest big hits were not as loud as impactful as in years past. So I assume it's a lack of talent..... or did they get a new brass caption head? ...... or maybe I'm wrong, I don't know.

[perc2100]

Do tell. Specific things in mind?

As someone else mentioned, namely their entire visual program. Their drill always leave much to be desired, their guard is typically under par with their brass and percussion, and often their GE is minimal when compared to the Top 4 or 5 corps. Obviously in 2008 Phantom maxed out with effect, and their brass & percussion sections were strong enough to overcompensate for their below-par visual program. I honestly can't really ever remember Phantom have a Championship caliber visual program. IMO, Phantom still almost stubbornly puts all their design thought into music, and frequently their visual program feels like an afterthought for the most part (though every once in awhile they have a good visual moment, like the opening visual phrase of their bird show).

I'm personally not a big fan of their 2008 show, though they obviously brought a great performance Finals night and deserve every bit of that hard-fought Championship. They did have a some cool GE in that show, both music & visually, though IMO it was a bit trite and cheesy. But 2008 is a big exception to what I said above, and the last two years seems indicative. When Phantom has a good brass book, and a horn & percussion lines that are talented enough to be in the Top 2 or 3, they can overcome their design shortcomings. Unfortunately, when their brass and percussion are just "Good" (note: their percussion section has been consistently incredible for the past several years), their typically sub-par visual design sink the corps even lower.

[perc2100]

I'm not going to comment on visual, but in brass performance, I honestly do think Phantom has fallen off quite a bit since 2008.

Phantom sounded great tonight (live at Quarters), but others sounded better. In 2008 when I heard Phantom's brass sound, I thought it was far above all the other corps'. Tonight, I thought BD, Bluecoats, Cadets, Crown, and possibly even Cavaliers had fuller, richer sounds. Even last year I would have only ranked Crown above Phantom in terms of brass sound quality.

I'm not sure what it is. Maybe it's the arrangements..... but that seems unlikely, I think this years arrangements couldn't be much better. Maybe they are lacking talent level... but why? After the championship, you would think kids would be flying to Rockford in droves to audition. But frankly, the brassline did seem a little more immature than the current "top 5." There were just certain parts of the show which were not as clear as they could have been, and certain portions where they could have been a little more musical. Even their loudest big hits were not as loud as impactful as in years past. So I assume it's a lack of talent..... or did they get a new brass caption head? ...... or maybe I'm wrong, I don't know.

Good point. I don't know what their brass staff situation is, but lack of talent might be a factor. I think generally potential membership are VERY fickle, and last year's low placement might've scared away more talented brass players from auditioning.

To add to that, I honestly think that their design team has struggled immensely to come up with a strong concept. The last two show designs make me think that their design team doesn't know how to design at a top level in DCI, and are frequently grasping as straws to come up with a cohesive product.

[kickhaltsforlife]

I think 2006 had a pretty good visual design... They did beat Cavies in GE visual on finals night I believe. 2006 I believe to be their best overall design ever..

[perc2100]

I think 2006 had a pretty good visual design... They did beat Cavies in GE visual on finals night I believe. 2006 I believe to be their best overall design ever..

Man there is such a jaw-droppingly interesting story behind that ranking...

[Tez]

As someone else mentioned, namely their entire visual program. Their drill always leave much to be desired, their guard is typically under par with their brass and percussion, and often their GE is minimal when compared to the Top 4 or 5 corps. Obviously in 2008 Phantom maxed out with effect, and their brass & percussion sections were strong enough to overcompensate for their below-par visual program. I honestly can't really ever remember Phantom have a Championship caliber visual program. IMO, Phantom still almost stubbornly puts all their design thought into music, and frequently their visual program feels like an afterthought for the most part (though every once in awhile they have a good visual moment, like the opening visual phrase of their bird show).

I'm personally not a big fan of their 2008 show, though they obviously brought a great performance Finals night and deserve every bit of that hard-fought Championship. They did have a some cool GE in that show, both music & visually, though IMO it was a bit trite and cheesy. But 2008 is a big exception to what I said above, and the last two years seems indicative. When Phantom has a good brass book, and a horn & percussion lines that are talented enough to be in the Top 2 or 3, they can overcome their design shortcomings. Unfortunately, when their brass and percussion are just "Good" (note: their percussion section has been consistently incredible for the past several years), their typically sub-par visual design sink the corps even lower.

I know I didn't comment on their visual early but I completely disagree with the common notion that Phantom's visual design in 2008 was sub-par.

I guess it's just me, but I think that drill they marched was one of the best I have seen in drum corps... ever. It fit the music perfectly... especially in the first half of the show. And isn't that the drill's main purpose?..... to complement the music and stage the musicians appropriately? If guard design is the issue, then okay.... as I don't understand much guard stuff anyway... but personally, I thought Phantom's drill in 2005-2008 was exceptional.

[perc2100]

I know I didn't comment on their visual early but I completely disagree with the common notion that Phantom's visual design in 2008 was sub-par.

I guess it's just me, but I think that drill they marched was one of the best I have seen in drum corps... ever. It fit the music perfectly... especially in the first half of the show. And isn't that the drill's main purpose?..... to complement the music and stage the musicians appropriately? If guard design is the issue, then okay.... as I don't understand much guard stuff anyway... but personally, I thought Phantom's drill in 2005-2008 was exceptional.

Definitely. But if I'm remembering, I seem to recall some pretty lame transitions (that were fixed, or covered-up, but roll playing stuff from the horn line). Recaps kind of back me up, as they came in 3rd in GE Vis, 3rd in Vis over-all (with a 4th place across the board in guard and a 4th place in visual composition). Add to that the fact that it was visually performed below the music captions, and clearly visual over-all nearly killed their Championship win: if not for their superior music (and for the fact that apparently BD had a worse show at Finals than they did the rest of the week) they would've come in 2nd for sure.

2005 & 2006 were better visual efforts for sure, but 2007 was a pretty bad year for them visually. If I remember, they underachieved in GE Vis, and were a pretty dismal 6th in Vis overall (even though they were fourth overall).