Shows from the past...

[t-mac]

With some of the talk of BD establishing a new "paradigm" of performance and comparisons with Star '93, I started wondering... how far back do you think you could go to find a show (champion or otherwise) that would still be competitive (top three) against today's programs? Do you think any show from the past could have scored higher head to head against BD's show this year?

T-Mac

[jwillis35]

Honestly, it depends on the style of the show and the excellence in the performance captions. I say that because certainly there would be an advantage for today's top 5 corps with their modern and demanding visual style. But if the performance captions were strong enough with a past top 5 corps and they were going against a current top 5 who had some weaknesses in music demand, or if their GE was not very good, then there would be a chance for the older corps to defeat them.

Obviously, it's a tough thing to compare.

Here are some examples, and these are, of course, just my opinion:

Star of Indiana from 1991 would have beat every corps this year except the Blue Devils. Now I only say this because Star had a fairly modern show with high impact GE and awesome performance captions that year, and this year's Cavaliers and Bluecoats had some weaknesses. I also believe the Cavaliers from 1991 might have beat this year's version (maybe).

Garfield Cadets 1984 on the other hand, as good as that show was for it's time, would not have beat our top 2 or 3 corps this year. They would not have had the percussion scores to compensate for losing out to the modern visual style. They would be fine in brass, and would be awesome in GE (see Madison this year), but the visual GE score might hurt them and their less-than-stellar percussion line that year would also hurt them against the modern-day powerful lines like Cavaliers, Bluecoats, and Blue Devils. Garfield 1984 might be top 6 or 7, but not top 3.

In general, I think you have to weigh the GE scores against the Visual scores. The modern shows will have the advantage in visual, but some of the older shows might have the advantage in GE, and then the difference may come down to performance.

It's always interesting to think about, but it really is apples and oranges.

Edited August 17, 2010 by jwillis35

[GGarrett]

Probably not without adding some modern corps aggressiveness to them from a drill standpoint.

But from a music standpoint and a little dusting off and turbo charging... and with todays modern instruments... two shows that immediately come to mind from 25+ years ago would be Santa Clara Vanguard 1982 and Phantom Regiment 1978.

[oldbandguy]

With some of the talk of BD establishing a new "paradigm" of performance and comparisons with Star '93, I started wondering... how far back do you think you could go to find a show (champion or otherwise) that would still be competitive (top three) against today's programs? Do you think any show from the past could have scored higher head to head against BD's show this year?

T-Mac

2008 Phantom...2008 BD for that matter.

[GGarrett]

Honestly, it depends on the style of the show and the excellence in the performance captions. I say that because certainly there would be an advantage for today's top 5 corps with their modern and demanding visual style. But if the performance captions were strong enough with a past top 5 corps and they were going against a current top 5 who had some weaknesses in music demand, or if their GE was not very good, then there would be a chance for the older corps to defeat them.

Obviously, it's a tough thing to compare.

Here are some examples, and these are, of course, just my opinion:

Star of Indiana from 1991 would have beat every corps this year except the Blue Devils. Now I only say this because Star had a fairly modern show with high impact GE and awesome performance captions that year, and this year's Cavaliers and Bluecoats has some weaknesses. I also believe the Cavaliers from 1991 might have beat this year's version (maybe).

Garfield Cadets 1984 on the other hand, as good as that show was for it's time, would not have beat our top 2 or 3 corps this year. They would not have had the percussion scores to compensate for losing out to the modern visual style. They would be fine in brass, and would be awesome in GE (see Madison this year), but the visual GE score might hurt them and their less-than-stellar percussion line that year would also hurt them against the modern-day powerful lines like Cavaliers, Bluecoats, and Blue Devils. Garfield 1984 might be top 6 or 7, but not top 3.

In general, I think you have to weigh the GE scores against the Visual scores. The modern shows will have the advantage in visual, but some of the older shows might have the advantage in GE, and then the difference may come down to performance.

It's always interesting to think about, but it really is apples and oranges.

agreed, as usual, with jwillis.

[Peel Paint]

t-mac, you didn't specify which era's judges and rules were being used. That's the key.

If you mean today's judges scoring older shows in comparison with today's, I don't think you could go back more than five years or so and still be a top six corps if current judges and rules are used. Compete with a show design and performance more than a decade old today, and I doubt even a champion would now be a finalist corps. The judges would recognize the design as dated, hear the lack of electronics and the use of G bugles, see the smaller presence on the field (fewer members allowed), etc. etc., and ding it all big-time... excuse me, I mean, not reward credit, since scoring is build-up.

Flip it around and time-warp 2010 BD to back in the day, and the penalties alone would wipe them out of even semifinalist status. Take the rules stuff out of the equation, and the judges would be flabbergasted by the performance quality, but I think they'd still not be digging the design if you go warp today's champions back more than a decade. Too choppy. No flow. Nothing hummable. It would score okay, but it wouldn't win.

[JimF-LowBari]

Flip it around and time-warp 2010 BD to back in the day, and the penalties alone would wipe them out of even semifinalist status.

LMAO, and people today complain that corps design for the judges. BITD it was beat the crap out of basic drill to cut down on the number of tics.

We marched in two Sr circuits for a while. One circuit had the "not quite ready for DCA" corps (nod to SNL "Not ready for Prime Time Players") and was GE heavy in the scores. Then there was DCA which was execution driven and cleaner. Still remember doing a run thru and being kinda sloppy. Then we heard the scream "It's DCA this weekend, so execute #### it execute!!!".

In this case it would be: "It's BITD judges, so execute #### it execute!!".

Edited August 17, 2010 by JimF-LowBari

[skywhopper]

Compete with a show design and performance more than a decade old today, and I doubt even a champion would now be a finalist corps. The judges would recognize the design as dated, hear the lack of electronics and the use of G bugles, see the smaller presence on the field (fewer members allowed), etc. etc., and ding it all big-time...

Interesting thoughts. I'd been wondering if a corps that wanted to make a statement could drop the amps and synths for a season, maybe keep the Bb and 150 members, but follow through on the old-skool teasing that Madison and Cadets employed this year, and come up with an authentic retro design that, while it might not win, would, by virtue of being different and being executed well, place well in finals and become a fan fave.

[Michael Boo]

I got a call last night from a Cavalier buddy who flat out stated that the DCI Worlds finalist corps we marched in back in 1975 would have lost to Blue Devils "B" this year.

[t-mac]

t-mac, you didn't specify which era's judges and rules were being used. That's the key.

Well, I really wasn't wanting to consider rules...just design and performance level. For instance, do you think Star ''91 or '93 would be Top 3 this year? What about SCV '99? What about Cavies' 4 Corners or Cadets Stonehenge? SCV '89? How far back before design and execution become noticably out of the top 3?

Edited August 17, 2010 by t-mac