World Class Motivation

[BozzlyB]

Oh, I left out I have been around drum corps for 48 seasons, so I have seen a lot.

In my 10 active years, prior to DCI, I won 9 national championships, 4 marching, 4 teaching, and 1 individual. I am still a professional musician in the Chicago area, and have held my own while performing with members of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, and Lyric Opera Orchestra. I am not the common, untrained fan in the stands.

I want to go on record that I detest this concept. I always have and always will detest it.

I have brought this up because of a blog I read by a mellophone player in one of the top corps published at the end of July regarding a rehearsal from that day. The member was explaining the corps had two basics blocks, the "good" block, and the "tick" block". If you made a mistake in the good block, you were sent to the tick block, which ran many of the same drills, but at a much higher tempo, and for a longer duration. If you then made a mistake in the tick block, you ran laps, or did pushups.

The member seemed to accept this as a norm for drum corps, which really made me upset. At the end the member stated he/she could hardly stand up because they were so tired.

I have made an attempt to not mention the sex of the member as to not give any clue which corps this might have been.

During championship week I was talking to a group of friends mentioning this blog. One of my friends, a long time booster of a different top level corps said, "Everyone runs." He also accepted this as a norm for a different top 10 corps, which has me wondering how commonly this is done.

I don't disagree with running. I believe it is necessary, especially in the pre tour camps, for cardio vascular conditioning. I only have a problem if it is continued for punishment reasons.

Before I get too upset, I would like to know how common this practice is.

This is why I am asking the members of the world class corps to check in and let me know.

I agree, physical punishment is the action of a very poor teacher. Fatigue does not make you better, it causes mistakes. Not only physically, but it mentally wears you down, and by the end of the season, you are a "broken pony".

If this is prevalent, I may try to start a movement within the DCI organization to ban this form of abuse from drum corps. I consider this abuse. If I had a child in a corps where I was paying the salaries of the staff through donations and dues, and I saw this, I would walk onto the field and take my child off of the field.

In the case of the blog, when the season started going downhill for the corps in question, from every report I saw/heard, the staff worked this members harder and changed virtually nothing in the show to improve the results. This is my definition of crazy, "repeating the same acitons, and expecting different results." Maybe the staff should have been running laps until they figured out how to do their job better.

I would dearly love to see this removed from drum corps, but until I know how prevalent this type of action is within the movement, I can not determine the best way to proceed.

I don't want this to become an argument as to whether this is good, I simply would like a poll from the people involved as to how often this occurs.

I will get off of my soap box, now.

Thanks to anyone who has the "guts" to speak up and let us know what your corps is doing. I wold love to see the drum corps experience be a positive experience for every young woman and man who performs. The only way to do this is to know what is happening and take action to remove detrimental actions.

Wow, of all the causes you could champion you're going to focus on pushups in drum corps. Thanks for saving the world for us. This thread is beyond ridiculous.

Edited August 19, 2010 by BozzlyB

[acanadeanhick]

Most of the people running are the ones who subscribe to that type of crazy, not the staff. It gets results, running gets the kids in shape, and everyone recognizes it for what it is: being truthfully accountable for mistakes.

Also non-punishment pre-rep running was very common; particularly before ballads. Run, pick up instruments, play the ballad - not a punishment, just a way to simulate the tired feeling at that point in the show and difficulty in controlling slow tempo with a high heart rate.

And to the fatigue/broken pony comments: I never saw anyone finish the season broken. Its a break down during spring training and a rebuild that starts before the first batch of shows.

I misread your line about the staff failing to change other parts of the show; agreed that is crazy.

But the most common line I heard from staff when people were ******* all over themselves was "If its not working, TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT." Running was often a good way to quickly hold people responsible for their actions; and depending on how its executed understand that your actions affect the whole group.

[WOOHOO]

Having someone to mild extremely short term exercise is NOT corporal punishment.

I wouldn't call it corporal punishment, but I would call it pedagogical laziness. I guess it gets quick results, but it really doesn't hold anyone accountable. Most of the time, when I marched, I saw the same people doing pushups after every rep, so obviously, it doesn't get rid of the ticks.

To answer the original post, it was more prevalent my first year than my second year, but it wasn't uncommon to have things like that happen.

[RetiredJedi]

I have brought this up because of a blog I read by a mellophone player in one of the top corps published at the end of July regarding a rehearsal from that day. The member was explaining the corps had two basics blocks, the "good" block, and the "tick" block". If you made a mistake in the good block, you were sent to the tick block, which ran many of the same drills, but at a much higher tempo, and for a longer duration. If you then made a mistake in the tick block, you ran laps, or did pushups.

Without knowing the context of the reasoning behind these blocks I submit the following:

A group that I worked with struggled with the tempo increase that we wanted for our opener. They were locked in at 168bpm and we desired 192bpm. We encouraged. We pleaded. We threatened. It had nothing to do with the STAFF and their ability. It was a collective mental hurdle that the group struggled with. We decided to run the entire opener over and over at 220bpm for 30 minutes. The members thought that they were being punished. The members, and parents that were watching, thought we were pure evil. However... when we reset to run it again, and set the tempo at 192bpm, the members felt like they were taking a stroll through the park. 2 missions accomplished.

Is it possible that this is why there were 2 drill blocks?

Edited August 19, 2010 by RetiredJedi

[WOOHOO]

Without knowing the context of the reasoning behind these blocks I submit the following:

A group that I worked with struggled with the tempo increase that we wanted for our opener. They were locked in at 168bpm and we desired 192bpm. We encouraged. We pleaded. We threatened. It had nothing to do with the STAFF and their ability. It was a collective mental hurdle that the group struggled with. We decided to run the entire opener over and over at 220bpm for 30 minutes. The members thought that they were being punished. The members, and parents that were watching, thought we were pure evil. However... when we reset to run it again, and set the tempo at 192bpm, the members felt like they were talking a stroll through the park. 2 missions accomplished.

Is it possible that this is why there were 2 drill blocks?

The difference with what you are talking about is that what you were doing wasn't punishment; it was conditioning. You weren't picking out individuals either. That's what the OP was talking about.

[TrumpetJ]

Should have stopped after "the last year or two". Was there really any need to the rest of it?

With so many threads suddenly being hijacked with "back in my day" reasoning, then yeah.

Without knowing the context of the reasoning behind these blocks I submit the following:

A group that I worked with struggled with the tempo increase that we wanted for our opener. They were locked in at 168bpm and we desired 192bpm. We encouraged. We pleaded. We threatened. It had nothing to do with the STAFF and their ability. It was a collective mental hurdle that the group struggled with. We decided to run the entire opener over and over at 220bpm for 30 minutes. The members thought that they were being punished. The members, and parents that were watching, thought we were pure evil. However... when we reset to run it again, and set the tempo at 192bpm, the members felt like they were talking a stroll through the park. 2 missions accomplished.

Is it possible that this is why there were 2 drill blocks?

That would be a very reasonable explanation if the whole corps were doing these "tick blocks", but it seems OP is describing it as select member being in said "tick block" because he/she messed something up in the regular block, which seems to do nothing but waste time for the rest of the corps IMO.

[RetiredJedi]

The difference with what you are talking about is that what you were doing wasn't punishment; it was conditioning. You weren't picking out individuals either. That's what the OP was talking about.

That would be a very reasonable explanation if the whole corps were doing these "tick blocks", but it seems OP is describing it as select member being in said "tick block" because he/she messed something up in the regular block, which seems to do nothing but waste time for the rest of the corps IMO.

Good observations. I didn't look at it from that viewpoint.

[RetiredJedi]

I have to ask. If it's the end of JULY and members still can't hang in a BASICS block...

How is it the STAFFS fault?

[Kamarag]

This kind of "teaching" is the sign of a bad teacher. "I don't know how to make this kid better so... I'm going to make this kid do push ups! That'll teach 'em"

Do you think the membership is purposely not doing what you asked? Is that why they deserved push ups or laps? Also, if you make a kid do push ups for an error that is called Corporal Punishment. I hope that nobody is doing that to their kids. A great instructor motivates his kids to work hard because they all share a common vision. This may not be the answer you're looking for but I just wanted to add my two cents

Making kids do push-ups is NOT corporal punishment. Corporal punishment, by definition, is the deliberate infliction of pain as retribution for an offence, or for the purpose of disciplining or reforming a wrongdoer, or to deter attitudes or behaviour deemed unacceptable. The term usually refers to methodically striking the offender with an implement, whether in judicial, domestic, or educational settings. Please do not exaggerate or mis-define a term to make a point, valid or not.

Now, let's talk about different kinds of motivation, based on cause and effect. I will use my corps as an example, because that is where I teach. I don't know or care how any other corps does things.

In Teal's case, we have younger kids. On average, we were somewhere around 17.5 or so (especially in the brass line). Younger kids respond to motivation, cause, and effect differently than older kids do. They also, by and large, are physically weaker and less mature intellectually. That also plays into focus. Now, understanding that, all of our student members learn that there are two types of actions. Unconscious (or subconscious) actions and conscious actions.

Unconscious actions are successes and failures that happen without intentional conscious thought. I drill tick, fracking a note, blowing a drill move as a result of someone else's mistake, etc.

Conscious actions require a choice by the student. "I will be on time for marching block" or "I will not be on time for marching block". Can external factors lead to a "negative" choice? Sure. For example, a member can't find his dot book, and in looking for it, is late to rehearsal. That is a conscious choice to be late. The student hasn't done what he needs to do to be on time with everything he needs. The member that is on time has made that choice, by doing whatever he needs to do to get there. Another great example of this is missing a marching/playing assignment because a student wasn't focused or paying attention.

Unconscious actions are never punished directly by the staff at Teal Sound. Many of the individuals and sections will do push-ups on their own (bettering themselves physically while they think about the mistake and how to correct it). This isn't really encouraged or discouraged. Personally, I think it's great that the members are taking the initiative to self-correct. Never confuse this sort of thing with negative reinforcement (ie. "We have to get this rep tic-free before we can move on"). Push-ups, running, etc in this context are not negative reinforcement required by the staff.

Conscious actions, on the other hand, are decisions made by the member, either by direct choice or by a string of other indirect choices. These infractions, known to the member, many times require some kind of corrective action. Being late to the bus after scores are announced, not cleaning the member's horn, etc. are examples of conscious actions the member knows and understands when they choose to do or not do whatever it is. These actions MUST be dealt with, preferable as soon as possible. Sometimes the members know the price to be paid ahead of time, sometimes they don't. Either way, they have chosen to break whatever rule you want to use as an example.

At Teal Sound, we will occasionally, but not always, use some sort of physical motivator as a repercussion for the student's choice. Late to brass arc? Take a lap around the school. (this is just one possible example...I'm in no way saying that's what we do all the time). Our members know and understand this ahead of time. Forget your dot book, or it's not complete? The student may find himself washing dishes in the food truck (a duty which has to be done by someone).

What is not in dispute is that our students make fewer and fewer bad decisions and bad choices as the summer progresses. This happens because they are learning to take responsibility for themselves, and that bad choices yield bas results. You know, just like in the real world.

Is there a point where this can become self-defeating? Yes, of course. But as professional educators, we know where that line is. Students, especially young ones, have to learn to become more mature in order to be successful. And that includes making the right choice, especially when no one is watching.

[WOOHOO]

I have to ask. If it's the end of JULY and members still can't hang in a BASICS block...

How is it the STAFFS fault?

In this hypothetical, it is the staff's fault for letting this kid hang around that long when they obviously are not physically or mentally invested in the group. They are simply a detriment to the corps being allowed to be at this point.