fleurghost Posted September 3, 2010 Share Posted September 3, 2010 Yikes, I hope you're missing something. I know people who got paid more than $30 for blocks at camps. $30 an hour? $30 a day? $30k? lol yes I meant to say $30K :) Thanks for that catch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleurghost Posted September 3, 2010 Share Posted September 3, 2010 As a former Director, and a High School Band Director NOW!!!! Scheduling is a major issues. But I am sure for a fan they don't see the problems faced with this. IE schools are usually "closed" to outsiders for end of year cleaning and "school year prep". You totally blow your "proposal" out of the water with LOOK AT BD AND THEIR PROPS. Go ahead and add MORE cost to construct, haul and store "PROPS" so that they look smaller. No one said do the same thing. However telling me to limit a corps to 60, when I personally had the ability to pull in 100 is totally silly on your part. Not my fault that I knew and still do know how to run a good group. I don't know what shows yo uare attending, but I can tell you this. If you walked in front of ANY of the OC corps and tell them they are "in limp, under-rehearsed, overly-long shows where they necessarily look small and weak next to the WC corps" you might not leave that field. 16 hour rehearsal days don't happen... Where have you taught at, or managed that rehearses 16 hours a day? Most EVERY corps gets min of 6 hours of sleep... 3 hours of "feeding" time at MIN 2 hours of Shower relax time 1 hour of break time throughout day that leaves 12 hours of rehearsal. And creating dumb'd down... hosed shows will make them feel sooooo much better about being the "lower" level kids. Well I for one believe in molding kids for the future....preparing them for life...... creating memories that will last a life time....... and giving them a sense of home....... NOT telling them... sorry you are in a smaller corps, we have to do easier things to make up appear and sound bigger, which you cannot fix the sounding bigger..... And OH BTW I need you to pay an addition $300 to build and haul props so we can make you look bigger.... But for your information I've now made it JUST as expensive to march WC... Really........ I'm thinking working on a drum corps staff is not in your future... I'm just being real about that one. Oh. Yeah, you're right. Let's just keep doing everything EXACTLY the same, but just try a little harder. I live in the midwest too (Chicago area), and my business is primarily geared toward selling programming to schools, so I know the schedules. Schools up here in the Lake County usually get out the first couple of days in June. Chicago public schools get out a little later, but are still done by June 10. WGI drum lines and guards are getting their shows ready to perform during the school year, so clearly high school kids CAN learn a 7 or 8 minute show and go to school at the same time. And, again, when I started marching in the mid-70s, the first show of the season was usually the first weekend in June, for corps big and small. It has been done, and could be done again, as long as the shows aren't so complex that they require 4 weeks of everydays just to teach the visual program. Re: making the field smaller, look at BD this year. You know what was interesting about the mirrors? They made the field smaller, hence making the corps appear bigger. Not rocket science to do the same thing for much smaller corps with rolling masking flats. Next question. What's going to kill drum corps is thinking that just doing the same thing as we're doing now is a key to success. It's not. In order for the activity to grow, it will have to start by looking for new formats that can be mastered without the kids having to spend 16 hour days, 30 days in a row just to learn the drill. Right now, we're sentencing kids who can't afford to march a WC corps to appearing in limp, under-rehearsed, overly-long shows where they necessarily look small and weak next to the WC corps (in part because they're stuck using the same format). Put any self-respecting kid in a situation where they can FEEL how much weaker they are than the kids on the other teams, and he will lose enthusiasm for what he's doing. Put him in a position where he is competing head to head with others in a different, freer, more 'fun' sport, where his form of drum corps is markedly different than what the World Class corps do, and he'll feel plenty good about what he's doing and give that enthusiasm to his peers. Right now, the kids in Open Class have to be able to recognize how hard they have to work to make an impression. Give them an alternative version of drum corps that is all about THEIR size corps, with freedom to do things that the big guys can't do, and you create a guerilla mentality that makes Show Corps its own animal rather than a tepid version of World Class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbassman5 Posted September 3, 2010 Share Posted September 3, 2010 As a former Director, and a High School Band Director NOW!!!! Scheduling is a major issues. But I am sure for a fan they don't see the problems faced with this. IE schools are usually "closed" to outsiders for end of year cleaning and "school year prep".You totally blow your "proposal" out of the water with LOOK AT BD AND THEIR PROPS. Go ahead and add MORE cost to construct, haul and store "PROPS" so that they look smaller. No one said do the same thing. However telling me to limit a corps to 60, when I personally had the ability to pull in 100 is totally silly on your part. Not my fault that I knew and still do know how to run a good group. I don't know what shows yo uare attending, but I can tell you this. If you walked in front of ANY of the OC corps and tell them they are "in limp, under-rehearsed, overly-long shows where they necessarily look small and weak next to the WC corps" you might not leave that field. 16 hour rehearsal days don't happen... Where have you taught at, or managed that rehearses 16 hours a day? Most EVERY corps gets min of 6 hours of sleep... 3 hours of "feeding" time at MIN 2 hours of Shower relax time 1 hour of break time throughout day that leaves 12 hours of rehearsal. And creating dumb'd down... hosed shows will make them feel sooooo much better about being the "lower" level kids. Well I for one believe in molding kids for the future....preparing them for life...... creating memories that will last a life time....... and giving them a sense of home....... NOT telling them... sorry you are in a smaller corps, we have to do easier things to make up appear and sound bigger, which you cannot fix the sounding bigger..... And OH BTW I need you to pay an addition $300 to build and haul props so we can make you look bigger.... But for your information I've now made it JUST as expensive to march WC... Really........ I'm thinking working on a drum corps staff is not in your future... I'm just being real about that one. as a member of an open class corps for 5 years, i can definitely say that i would have HATED to march in something like that person was proposing...#### that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobrien Posted September 3, 2010 Share Posted September 3, 2010 As a former Director, and a High School Band Director NOW!!!! Scheduling is a major issues. But I am sure for a fan they don't see the problems faced with this. IE schools are usually "closed" to outsiders for end of year cleaning and "school year prep".You totally blow your "proposal" out of the water with LOOK AT BD AND THEIR PROPS. Go ahead and add MORE cost to construct, haul and store "PROPS" so that they look smaller. No one said do the same thing. However telling me to limit a corps to 60, when I personally had the ability to pull in 100 is totally silly on your part. Not my fault that I knew and still do know how to run a good group. I don't know what shows yo uare attending, but I can tell you this. If you walked in front of ANY of the OC corps and tell them they are "in limp, under-rehearsed, overly-long shows where they necessarily look small and weak next to the WC corps" you might not leave that field. 16 hour rehearsal days don't happen... Where have you taught at, or managed that rehearses 16 hours a day? Most EVERY corps gets min of 6 hours of sleep... 3 hours of "feeding" time at MIN 2 hours of Shower relax time 1 hour of break time throughout day that leaves 12 hours of rehearsal. And creating dumb'd down... hosed shows will make them feel sooooo much better about being the "lower" level kids. Well I for one believe in molding kids for the future....preparing them for life...... creating memories that will last a life time....... and giving them a sense of home....... NOT telling them... sorry you are in a smaller corps, we have to do easier things to make up appear and sound bigger, which you cannot fix the sounding bigger..... And OH BTW I need you to pay an addition $300 to build and haul props so we can make you look bigger.... But for your information I've now made it JUST as expensive to march WC... Really........ I'm thinking working on a drum corps staff is not in your future... I'm just being real about that one. Too late - I already did it, with a consistent top 5 corps. No one there was scared of their own shadow, or afraid to make big changes when something wasn't working. Maybe that's why the big guys are consistently at the top. You know what this country has lots of? VFW posts and AL halls that are sitting empty most nights, because those organizations are having a hard time coming up with members. Why are you assuming that you need a school to hold a rehearsal? Drum corps was thriving back when most school band directors HATED the activity, so it's not like there was any school co-operation back then. I see you say you're a band director. No offense, but that helps explain some things re: your response. Most of the high school band directors I know are nice people. They care about the kids they work with, and the teaching process is the key element in their lives. They are also, to a person, not what I would call entrepreneurial. They're nice folks who have their world where the school board writes the paycheck, the kids show up in the bandroom, and the moms and dads will come to the concerts. Nothing wrong with that, but those aren't the types of people I'd be seeking advice from if I was starting a new enterprise. Creating new products and going out there to sell those products isn't part of their job description (as witness the email I got from my kids' high school band director today talking about their candy sale fundraiser... ) So, no offense, but I hope you don't take your own necessarily limited world view too seriously. For ex, the rolling masking flats BD used? The competing corps, though DCI, would co-operate (now THERE'S a concept) in purchasing sets of the flats that would be transported to the shows and set up prior to the first corps, then struck after the last, everyone using the same flats to create the same size field (you don't NEED a set for each corps' rehearsals). Once they're done, back on the truck they go and off to the next performance location. Maybe they'd need 5 sets, total. How much are you thinking that would be? Since I buy things like that for a living and have been approving budgets for theatre production for a very long time, I can tell you that a set of 20 rolling masking flats would cost about $250-400 each in materials and parts (aluminum pipe, casters, and a fabric for providing the actual backdrop) - probably less once you put together a volume buy. So DCI would invest $5,000-8,000 each in sets of flats to create a difference performance environments - about the same price as one marching tuba. Doesn't seem to be an insurmountable amount of money, does it? Oh, and then you need a truck to drive the "set" to the next show. Ok, add another couple hundred bucks on to each show date to accommodate the truck, unless someone has one they're willing to lend (which I imagine they could find). I don't know if or when you marched drum corps, but everything you're saying "can't" happen already DID HAPPEN in this activity, and IS still happening with WGI, so you can understand why I don't take the protestations too seriously. You have it in your head that there's one way of doing it, and that it's to be World Class Lite. Look at the crowds who are milling about in the parking lot or simply giving polite applause to many of the OC corps while they check their watches to see what time the WC corps start appearing, and you'd begin to think about the situation differently. If someone can put together 100 kids to do drum corps, great. They should follow the lead of everyone else who's marching WC today and start competing with the big boys. I see no reason for some of the bigger OC corps still competing with smaller organizations anyway, and it might be good for Pioneer to have their arses kicked by Blue Devils B, since it would give those kids someone new to play with at their ranking. Your comment about "hosed down" shows indicates that you really don't get the concept. We're talking about a form that can compete for crowd attention with what happens in the Top 12 WC in part because it's DIFFERENT from what they do; more about the musical presentation than the visual program. Sorry if you're offended by me relaying what the audiences are thinking about the product at most OC shows (not Blue Devils B, but I think we'll all agree that they're an exception). How many people came to OC finals this year? Not that many. Why? Because the shows aren't that fun, in part because they just feel like smaller, slower versions of what the big guys are doing. How many more people do you need to see hanging out in the parking lot or buying souvenirs while the OC corps are performing at a WC show do you need to see before you understand that for many of the fans, the current OC format isn't working? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobrien Posted September 3, 2010 Share Posted September 3, 2010 (edited) As a former Director, and a High School Band Director NOW!!!! Scheduling is a major issues. But I am sure for a fan they don't see the problems faced with this. IE schools are usually "closed" to outsiders for end of year cleaning and "school year prep".You totally blow your "proposal" out of the water with LOOK AT BD AND THEIR PROPS. Go ahead and add MORE cost to construct, haul and store "PROPS" so that they look smaller. No one said do the same thing. However telling me to limit a corps to 60, when I personally had the ability to pull in 100 is totally silly on your part. Not my fault that I knew and still do know how to run a good group. I don't know what shows yo uare attending, but I can tell you this. If you walked in front of ANY of the OC corps and tell them they are "in limp, under-rehearsed, overly-long shows where they necessarily look small and weak next to the WC corps" you might not leave that field. 16 hour rehearsal days don't happen... Where have you taught at, or managed that rehearses 16 hours a day? Most EVERY corps gets min of 6 hours of sleep... 3 hours of "feeding" time at MIN 2 hours of Shower relax time 1 hour of break time throughout day that leaves 12 hours of rehearsal. And creating dumb'd down... hosed shows will make them feel sooooo much better about being the "lower" level kids. Well I for one believe in molding kids for the future....preparing them for life...... creating memories that will last a life time....... and giving them a sense of home....... NOT telling them... sorry you are in a smaller corps, we have to do easier things to make up appear and sound bigger, which you cannot fix the sounding bigger..... And OH BTW I need you to pay an addition $300 to build and haul props so we can make you look bigger.... But for your information I've now made it JUST as expensive to march WC... Really........ I'm thinking working on a drum corps staff is not in your future... I'm just being real about that one. Too late - I already did it, with a consistent top 5 corps. No one there was afraid to make big changes when something wasn't working. Maybe that's why the big guys are consistently at the top. You know what this country has lots of? VFW posts and AL halls that are sitting empty most nights, because those organizations are having a hard time coming up with members. Why are you assuming that you need a school to hold a rehearsal? Drum corps was thriving back when most school band directors HATED the activity, so it's not like there was any school co-operation back then. I see you say you're a band director. No offense, but that helps explain some things re: your response. For ex, the rolling masking flats BD used? You seem to be thinking that items like that are hugely expensive. Well, yeah, I suppose if everyone went out and bought the mylar reflective models, they could be, but that's not what I'm talkin about. In my mind, the competing corps, though DCI, would co-operate (now THERE'S a concept) in purchasing sets of the flats that would be transported to the shows and set up prior to the first corps, then struck after the last, everyone using the same flats to create the same size field (you don't NEED a set for each corps' rehearsals). Once they're done, back on the truck they go and off to the next performance location. Maybe they'd need 5 sets, total. How much are you thinking that would be? Since I buy things like that for a living and have been approving budgets for theatre production for a very long time, I can tell you that a set of 20 rolling masking flats would cost about $250-400 each in materials and parts (aluminum pipe, casters, and a fabric for providing the actual backdrop) - probably less once you put together a volume buy. So DCI would invest $5,000-8,000 each in sets of flats to create a difference performance environments - about the same price as one marching tuba. Doesn't seem to be an insurmountable amount of money, does it? Oh, and then you need a truck to drive the "set" to the next show. Ok, add another couple hundred bucks on to each show date to accommodate the truck, unless someone has one they're willing to lend (which I imagine they could find). I don't know if or when you marched drum corps, but everything you're saying "can't" happen already DID HAPPEN in this activity, and IS still happening with WGI, so you can understand why I don't take the protestations too seriously. You have it in your head that there's one way of doing it, and that it's to be World Class Lite. Look at the crowds who are milling about in the parking lot or simply giving polite applause to many of the OC corps while they check their watches to see what time the WC corps start appearing, and you'd begin to think about the situation differently. If someone can put together 100 kids to do drum corps, great. They should follow the lead of everyone else who's marching WC today and start competing with the big boys. I see no reason for some of the bigger OC corps still competing with smaller organizations anyway, and it might be good for Pioneer to have their arses kicked by Blue Devils B, since it would give those kids someone new to play with at their ranking. Your comment about "hosed down" shows indicates that you really don't get the concept. We're talking about a form that can compete for crowd attention with what happens in the Top 12 WC in part because it's DIFFERENT from what they do; more about the musical presentation than the visual program. Sorry if you're offended by me relaying what the audiences are thinking about the product at most OC shows (not Blue Devils B, but I think we'll all agree that they're an exception). How many people came to OC finals this year? Not that many. Why? Because the shows aren't that fun, in part because they just feel like smaller, slower versions of what the big guys are doing. How many more people do you need to see hanging out in the parking lot or buying souvenirs while the OC corps are performing at a WC show do you need to see before you understand that for many of the fans, the current OC format isn't working? Edited September 3, 2010 by mobrien Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piper Posted September 3, 2010 Share Posted September 3, 2010 If there's no such thing as 16 hour rehearsals I must have fell asleep on the 50 and missed a few. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleurghost Posted September 4, 2010 Share Posted September 4, 2010 My world... NICE PEOPLE!! lol I know QUITE a bit about this activity. as a 14 year MARCHING MEMBER and now a 8 year STAFF/ADMIN person, I have a pretty firm grasp on what I am doing. And I work at a program where we pay our own bills. Again what school do you work with that just gives money? And WHO did you go in front of and tell that too? I'd like to know? Too late - I already did it, with a consistent top 5 corps. No one there was scared of their own shadow, or afraid to make big changes when something wasn't working. Maybe that's why the big guys are consistently at the top.You know what this country has lots of? VFW posts and AL halls that are sitting empty most nights, because those organizations are having a hard time coming up with members. Why are you assuming that you need a school to hold a rehearsal? Drum corps was thriving back when most school band directors HATED the activity, so it's not like there was any school co-operation back then. I see you say you're a band director. No offense, but that helps explain some things re: your response. Most of the high school band directors I know are nice people. They care about the kids they work with, and the teaching process is the key element in their lives. They are also, to a person, not what I would call entrepreneurial. They're nice folks who have their world where the school board writes the paycheck, the kids show up in the bandroom, and the moms and dads will come to the concerts. Nothing wrong with that, but those aren't the types of people I'd be seeking advice from if I was starting a new enterprise. Creating new products and going out there to sell those products isn't part of their job description (as witness the email I got from my kids' high school band director today talking about their candy sale fundraiser... ) So, no offense, but I hope you don't take your own necessarily limited world view too seriously. For ex, the rolling masking flats BD used? The competing corps, though DCI, would co-operate (now THERE'S a concept) in purchasing sets of the flats that would be transported to the shows and set up prior to the first corps, then struck after the last, everyone using the same flats to create the same size field (you don't NEED a set for each corps' rehearsals). Once they're done, back on the truck they go and off to the next performance location. Maybe they'd need 5 sets, total. How much are you thinking that would be? Since I buy things like that for a living and have been approving budgets for theatre production for a very long time, I can tell you that a set of 20 rolling masking flats would cost about $250-400 each in materials and parts (aluminum pipe, casters, and a fabric for providing the actual backdrop) - probably less once you put together a volume buy. So DCI would invest $5,000-8,000 each in sets of flats to create a difference performance environments - about the same price as one marching tuba. Doesn't seem to be an insurmountable amount of money, does it? Oh, and then you need a truck to drive the "set" to the next show. Ok, add another couple hundred bucks on to each show date to accommodate the truck, unless someone has one they're willing to lend (which I imagine they could find). I don't know if or when you marched drum corps, but everything you're saying "can't" happen already DID HAPPEN in this activity, and IS still happening with WGI, so you can understand why I don't take the protestations too seriously. You have it in your head that there's one way of doing it, and that it's to be World Class Lite. Look at the crowds who are milling about in the parking lot or simply giving polite applause to many of the OC corps while they check their watches to see what time the WC corps start appearing, and you'd begin to think about the situation differently. If someone can put together 100 kids to do drum corps, great. They should follow the lead of everyone else who's marching WC today and start competing with the big boys. I see no reason for some of the bigger OC corps still competing with smaller organizations anyway, and it might be good for Pioneer to have their arses kicked by Blue Devils B, since it would give those kids someone new to play with at their ranking. Your comment about "hosed down" shows indicates that you really don't get the concept. We're talking about a form that can compete for crowd attention with what happens in the Top 12 WC in part because it's DIFFERENT from what they do; more about the musical presentation than the visual program. Sorry if you're offended by me relaying what the audiences are thinking about the product at most OC shows (not Blue Devils B, but I think we'll all agree that they're an exception). How many people came to OC finals this year? Not that many. Why? Because the shows aren't that fun, in part because they just feel like smaller, slower versions of what the big guys are doing. How many more people do you need to see hanging out in the parking lot or buying souvenirs while the OC corps are performing at a WC show do you need to see before you understand that for many of the fans, the current OC format isn't working? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piper Posted September 4, 2010 Share Posted September 4, 2010 I usually like attending OC shows because it's less of a hassle. A WC show can be like fighting your way through JFK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntheMood Posted September 4, 2010 Share Posted September 4, 2010 Mobrin, you have some good ideas. And some ideas not so good. BITD I marched with a Class A Corps that had over 100 members and our first show was always the last weekend of May. It is going to be very interesting this year in Indiana. There is very strong talk of starting the School year after Labor Day. You are correct, change must happen from the top down. Which means to me, Mr. Eddleman (sp) gets one more chance to do something that will have a positive impact on the OC Div. If he does not deliver this off season he must go. You are correct, the OC Div. must stop acting like WC Corps. They must set themselves apart from the WC Div. I just read on here that a staff member in the OC Div. receives 30k. You have got to be kidding me. They make this much money while their Corps gets no money for the most part when the preform. To me the OC Div. must at least try to bring back the Legacy Fans, by going unplugged (by the way there are Corps in OC who are already unplugged) and creating a scoring system that will bring back part of the tick system and marry it with the current scoring system. Will this work? Who knows. All I know that doing the same-old same-old is not working today. And what I suggested will cost little to no money. The Spartans proved this year that indeed you do not have to be plugged in to medal. They also proved that going on first is not always a bad thing. So mix up the order at every show. If most OC Corps are doing weekend only shows, then to me, there is no reason why they can not bring back retreat at every OC show. I agree that the OC Div. must reconnect somehow someway with their local VFW or AL post. If this happens it will be a win, win for the Corps, the Post and the local community. The founder of SDCA came on here and said that they are thinking about not only doing indoor shows but outdoor shows also. I feel this could work. Yet as far as I know he has yet to answer Stu's questions. Until Stu's questions are answered I will remain skeptical. If Stu's question have already been answered please show me where. As far as limiting the number of CMM's to me, this is an anti- growth idea. Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobrien Posted September 4, 2010 Share Posted September 4, 2010 (edited) As far as limiting the number of CMM's to me, this is an anti- growth idea. It's a limit that is set by the realities of the situation - you are likely to get many more COMPETING UNITS if each prospective corps management team knows that all they need to be competitive is 40 to 60 members. If one of the newly-formed units has more than 60 kids auditioning (and let's think about how often that might happen, shall we?...), then it means that he or she is succeeding already in terms of the product, and that maybe that corps director is ready to move his corps up to World Class (or whatever it wants to be called) competition. Those who marched with local corps that had 100 kids in them back in the heyday of drum corps didn't participate in 'handicapped' drum corps - if their corps was that big, they competed for DCI Finals just like every other corps that size. Holding off on a size limitation that would boost the number of units (hence the number of places kids can march) in the interest of a handful of corps who can pull in larger number of kids would necessarily delay any expansion in the activity, and delaying growth and innovation at the grass roots of the activity, at this point in the process, is tantamount to a self-imposed death sentence. Open Class will have to be turned into something more adventurous, and something more focused in terms of programming and adjudication if it's going to grow. And if the activity can't find a way to reinvent grass roots drum corps in a way that offers unique appeal to the performers - while respecting the financial and demographic realities of their situation - then the G7 will look prescient, not presumptuous, in looking out for themselves as the ship began sinking. Edited September 4, 2010 by mobrien Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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