EASY FIX to increase Open Class participation

[IntheMood]

It's a limit that is set by the realities of the situation - you are likely to get many more COMPETING UNITS if each prospective corps management team knows that all they need to be competitive is 40 to 60 members. If one of the newly-formed units has more than 60 kids auditioning (and let's think about how often that might happen, shall we?...), then it means that he or she is succeeding already in terms of the product, and that maybe that corps director is ready to move his corps up to World Class (or whatever it wants to be called) competition. Those who marched with local corps that had 100 kids in them back in the heyday of drum corps didn't participate in 'handicapped' drum corps - if their corps was that big, they competed for DCI Finals just like every other corps that size.

Holding off on a size limitation that would boost the number of units (hence the number of places kids can march) in the interest of a handful of corps who can pull in larger number of kids would necessarily delay any expansion in the activity, and delaying growth and innovation at the grass roots of the activity, at this point in the process, is tantamount to a self-imposed death sentence. Open Class will have to be turned into something more adventurous, and something more focused in terms of programming and adjudication if it's going to grow. And if the activity can't find a way to reinvent grass roots drum corps in a way that offers unique appeal to the performers - while respecting the financial and demographic realities of their situation - then the G7 will look prescient, not presumptuous, in looking out for themselves as the ship began sinking.

In 1975 we had 118 members and we competed in the Class A DCI Finals, not Open Class/WC Finals. I think Music City had around 70 MM's this year. And they were very competitive. They had a good show this year. It would of been great if they would not have talked during the Show IMHO. I do not know for sure. But what I was told is that most of the Corps had less then 80 members in their Corps. So it looks to me that a Corps with 40-60 members can indeed be competitive in the OC Div. BDB is the exception not the rule.

Dean

[fleurghost]

I don't think people are saying that 40-60 members cannot be successful in competition.

What I am saying is do I cut a corps from 100 down to 60 to be in that division? because I can assure you that just because a corps can get 100 members doesn't mean they want to, or would qualify as a "WC" corps.

There isn't a director out there that would say "lets mandate the size of the field. Lets place big barriers up to make sure look bigger....

In the same breath, why would you limit the size of a corps. Running a corps is a full time job. Those that wish to impose limits on the corps, are you willing to quit your job to focus FULL time on the running of a corps? Because it does take 60-80 hours a week to do so. emails with members, parents, fans, sponsors, design people, music arrangers, staff, copyright people. The list goes on and on. SO why all of a sudden do you think that 20 new corps will just POP up?

I ask everyone who makes these proposals to look at SEVERAL situations.... First think of financial impacts....... Do you know what it costs to run a semi, gas wise? to haul those "platform devices to make football field smaller" costs?

Second, you are assuming that stadiums will allow this. In fact many will not, hence the fact that there are STRICT rules about wheel sizes to be allowed on the grass, and track and such.

Thirdly, you are imposing a great deal of additional financial burden onto corps to ask them to haul these things around, as DCI will not pay for gas to haul them around, especially when they are not needed.

So again we add additional spending to programs that don't get the first bit of funding from DCI. No show pay, and they have to pay for housing, unlike WC. I ask if people TRULY understand the operational aspects of an OC corps?

But I would suggest you to fly out (or drive) to the OC BoD meeting. Present your ideas, however in that same sentence be prepared to be told... NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, THANKS!!!!

I agree, amps are not the answer to problems, and neither is the corps size. Smaller units can be JUST as good as larger ones. But placing limits on them is rather silly, and if this was the case, then essentially you are asking for the re classification between Div I, II, III because 100 is not 150 and 100 is not 60 so there would have to be 3 different classes.........

[mobrien]

"There isn't a director out there that would say "lets mandate the size of the field. Lets place big barriers up to make sure look bigger...."

Maybe there should be, because putting those groups of 40 or 50 kids out there on a huge open football field only highlights how small they are relative to the WC corps, and makes the great unwashed masses in the stands perceive them as being "worse" than the big corps ("after all, look how many people are in these other corps"...).

Think whatever you want, but at least acknowledge a basic marketing fact; perception IS reality.

If they're perceived as being smaller, weaker sounding, less skilled (which shows up primarily with visual programs that are working too hard to fill a field), then people will perceive them as being of lesser quality, hence less worthy of supporting and less attractive to join. Come up with your own alternative, whatever, but do it with the basic goal of coming up with a way to make smalller, part-time drum corps as much fun for the audiences in its own way as the best WC corps are in theirs. That necessarily rules out just doing more of the same, because clearly it's not working.

The artform as a whole is dying, in part because the grass roots have been totally ignored by the fanbase. But if the people at the grassroots are in denial that their end of drum corps is both the area that needs the most attention from fans and potential members AND the area of drum corps that needs to DO SOMETHING BIG in order to grab that attention, then there's really nothing else to say.

Edited September 4, 2010 by mobrien

[fleurghost]

Have you looked at the schedule? Most Open Class corps do only a part tour to begin with. You not making sense.

Many corps fold or go inactive because they cannot find members, or because they cannot generate funds. Then other times there are some that just cannot focus on members.

OC is NOT the problem. OC usually turns the profit, and doesn't spend more than they have to spend. ITS the WC that is causing the issue.

Bigger, More equipment, electronics, longer tours, tour the nation... OOPPS we need more money, no one will pay $35-$50 to see us anymore. WHY? That's what you hear. Its not the OC shows.... NOPE

Drum Corps is supported by music fans, they are not ignorant... Smaller doesn't mean weaker.... Corps is not mainstream, if people "perceive" something like that then that's their fault.

I can assure you that from the individuals at the helm of the OC.... Give them equal show pay (or any pay at all) and there will be big powerful smart corps, and quite frankly more. If an OC corps can operate and ENTIRE summer on $100K and place in top 5 with 100 members, then trust me they will survive.

And OC is ignored, because WC and DCI doesn't use the same marketing for all corps equally. The focus is placed on the big flashy corps... If the energy was placed on all the smaller, then you'd see a "change of times" but its not happened. So my suggestion s go after WC, and tell THEM to make changes. The changes need to be from TOP down. Cut waste out at the top and level the playing field. When you do that, the activity as a whole will develop.

Maybe there should be, because putting those groups of 40 or 50 kids out there on a huge open football field only highlights how small they are relative to the WC corps, and makes the great unwashed masses in the stands perceive them as being "worse" than the big corps ("after all, look how many people are in these other corps"...).

Think whatever you want, but at least acknowledge a basic marketing fact; perception IS reality.

If they're perceived as being smaller, weaker sounding, less skilled (which shows up primarily with visual programs that are working too hard to fill a field), then people will perceive them as being of lesser quality, hence less worthy of supporting and less attractive to join. Come up with your own alternative, whatever, but do it with the basic goal of coming up with a way to make smalller, part-time drum corps as much fun for the audiences in its own way as the best WC corps are in theirs. That necessarily rules out just doing more of the same, because clearly it's not working.

The artform as a whole is dying, in part because the grass roots have been totally ignored by the fanbase. But if the people at the grassroots are in denial that their end of drum corps is both the area that needs the most attention from fans and potential members AND the area of drum corps that needs to DO SOMETHING BIG in order to grab that attention, then there's really nothing else to say.

[IntheMood]

Maybe there should be, because putting those groups of 40 or 50 kids out there on a huge open football field only highlights how small they are relative to the WC corps, and makes the great unwashed masses in the stands perceive them as being "worse" than the big corps ("after all, look how many people are in these other corps"...).

Think whatever you want, but at least acknowledge a basic marketing fact; perception IS reality.

If they're perceived as being smaller, weaker sounding, less skilled (which shows up primarily with visual programs that are working too hard to fill a field), then people will perceive them as being of lesser quality, hence less worthy of supporting and less attractive to join. Come up with your own alternative, whatever, but do it with the basic goal of coming up with a way to make smalller, part-time drum corps as much fun for the audiences in its own way as the best WC corps are in theirs. That necessarily rules out just doing more of the same, because clearly it's not working.

The artform as a whole is dying, in part because the grass roots have been totally ignored by the fanbase. But if the people at the grassroots are in denial that their end of drum corps is both the area that needs the most attention from fans and potential members AND the area of drum corps that needs to DO SOMETHING BIG in order to grab that attention, then there's really nothing else to say.

I agree, perception is reality. I can assure you that people who perceive the OC as being smaller, weaker sounding, less skilled= lesser quality, hence less worthy of supporting and less attractive to join are people within the activity. The general population has no idea when they see their first show that BD has won 14 rings, and Music City is an OC Corps. For example: If one takes a new person to a show and one takes that person to the lot first because the first couple of Corps are not that good, how would that person know that the first couple of Corps are not that good? It is the people who are involved in the activity who has created the stigma that the OC Corps could not be good because they are small and in OC. It is NOT the general public who has created this stigma. What is interesting, is that for the most part people like the underdog to win once in awhile. However, in this activity if that happened, which it did, Instead of this activity embracing that win, DCI created a rule to prevent that from happening again.

Dean

[mobrien]

Many corps fold or go inactive because they cannot find ENOUGH members, or because they cannot generate funds. Then other times there are some that just cannot focus on members.

OC is NOT the problem. OC usually turns the profit, and doesn't spend more than they have to spend. ITS the WC that is causing the issue.

Fixed.

Sorry, been through that fire with the first 60-man drum corps I marched with in the 70s. After awhile, the best members got discouraged because they felt that the deck was stacked against the corps, mostly because bigger size = more impressive numbers. After a certain point, it became clear to members and management alike that we were on a treadmill to nowhere, and huge chunk of the corps decamped to go march other places where the their talents could actually matter in the score. A year later, the corps was dead.

That scenario was playing out all through the 70s and 80s. Why is drum corps in trouble now? Because there isn't enough of an alumni base to keep supporting the activity, in part because the places where kids can march drum corps are less. Why is that? Because kids like to compete, but they don't like to compete if they feel there's no chance they can win. If I put a 20 man hornline on the field, I'd have to be smoking some really good weed if I then believed that those 20 kids were going to be able to get big enough effect numbers to beat another corps with 55 horns.

You seem to have a real problem with the idea of member limitations, yet EVERY MAJOR SPORT has limitations on team size. I have yet to see a rationalization for not seeking a size limits that could foster competition and make it easier to form new competitive units; instead, your argument is "well some of them CAN put together 100+ member corps, so it wouldn't be fair to them...", which is actually an argument against leveling the playing field, imho.

My suggestion is that smaller, part-time drum corps have limits that correspond to the reality of the situation and provide a hittable target for those who want to start new corps. Seeing what most of the regional OC corps have on the field, 60 or so seems a reasonable target. Again, if a current OC corps really has the ability to put 100 kids on the football field, stop playing against corps half your size and go compete with the big boys where they belong; either that, or work with DCI to create two separate part-time corps divisions; one for the few corps who have 100 members and can fill a football field, and another for people who want to put together smaller corps where they can compete in a different format. But if the current OC leadership ignores the realities of the situation re: membership and impact of the programming in the WC-Lite format, they'll be stuck in neutral for a long time to come.

InTheMood, I'd agree that Joe Blow, who knows nothing about drum corps, might look at the Small Town Cadets and think "hey, they were ok..." But Joe Blow DOESN'T go to drum corps shows; the audience at drum corps shows is made up of people who already know something about the game, the same way that most people at baseball games KNOW who the Yankees and Red Sox are, and how the game is played. Hoping that the totally uninitiated will somehow show up and start supporting small corps isn't a viable game plan, imho. The path to growth will necessarily involve finding a way to make smaller, part-time corps as attractive to the existing fanbase as the best World Class corps. To my mind, that would involve making it different enough from WC to make it its own game.

Edited September 6, 2010 by mobrien

[IntheMood]

InTheMood, I'd agree that Joe Blow, who knows nothing about drum corps, might look at the Small Town Cadets and think "hey, they were ok..." But Joe Blow DOESN'T go to drum corps shows; the audience at drum corps shows is made up of people who already know something about the game, the same way that most people at baseball games KNOW who the Yankees and Red Sox are, and how the game is played. Hoping that the totally uninitiated will somehow show up and start supporting small corps isn't a viable game plan, imho. The path to growth will necessarily involve finding a way to make smaller, part-time corps as attractive to the existing fanbase as the best World Class corps. To my mind, that would involve making it different enough from WC to make it its own game.

There was a time that Joe Blow went to the shows. The main reason IMHO Joe came, was most shows that I competed in were connected to a local community festival. We were a Week-end Corps. We did a show and then marched in the parade or vica-versa.

Yes, for the most part the baseball fan knows how the game is played. I feel holding on to tradition and little change in how the game is played, is a major part of that. Everybody and their brother is using aluminum bats. Except MLB. When MLB introduced instant replay the fan base for the most part had no problem with this. However, IMHO if there was a big out cry in the fan base about the use of instant replay. They would of stopped it. I am a life long Cinn. Reds fan. The reds are considered a small market team. The Reds have been bottom feeders for years. Yet this year they are having a great year. And may even win their Div. Can a Corps today go from worst to first in one year? My answer is No. and that to me is a problem. There is little or no parity in today's activity. When one goes to a baseball game you never know who is going to win. Yet I can look at who is going to be at a show and know for the most part who is going to win going in.

Dean

[fleurghost]

We have HAD three divisions. There isn't enough corps to do that. And you assume that size is the only thing that declares you OC or WC... Just because an organization can put 100 on the field doesn't mean they have the desire to go WC, and risk folding. WC just means they have access to the WC touring schedule. Why would I want to be FORCED to go WC if that is not the desire I wish to take, or the direction I want to go? We do have size mandates on corps. NO LESS THAN 30 and NO MORE THAN 150! There are your limits.... Whatever happens within those limitations is fair game.

The smaller organizations that you speak of being smaller and not on a level playing field, mostly do it to themselves, there are a few that try and cannot overcome membership hurdles, but you have to stop and as why is that. Most of the time it is the administration. Either they are lazy, or they simply do not engage in recruiting or getting their message out there.

If I saw just HALF or even 1/4 of the desire to promote and get the corps image out there on the part of any OC as a WC corps (other than a few) then there would be more corps, and bigger ensembles. But reality is, many of them just expect people to come, and truly they don't want to work. I can promise you that we've beat this horse TO DEATH, its not going to change, some corps will survive and some will die. Its mostly the leadership of the corps that ultimately does it!

Fixed.

Sorry, been through that fire with the first 60-man drum corps I marched with in the 70s. After awhile, the best members got discouraged because they felt that the deck was stacked against the corps, mostly because bigger size = more impressive numbers. After a certain point, it became clear to members and management alike that we were on a treadmill to nowhere, and huge chunk of the corps decamped to go march other places where the their talents could actually matter in the score. A year later, the corps was dead.

That scenario was playing out all through the 70s and 80s. Why is drum corps in trouble now? Because there isn't enough of an alumni base to keep supporting the activity, in part because the places where kids can march drum corps are less. Why is that? Because kids like to compete, but they don't like to compete if they feel there's no chance they can win. If I put a 20 man hornline on the field, I'd have to be smoking some really good weed if I then believed that those 20 kids were going to be able to get big enough effect numbers to beat another corps with 55 horns.

You seem to have a real problem with the idea of member limitations, yet EVERY MAJOR SPORT has limitations on team size. I have yet to see a rationalization for not seeking a size limits that could foster competition and make it easier to form new competitive units; instead, your argument is "well some of them CAN put together 100+ member corps, so it wouldn't be fair to them...", which is actually an argument against leveling the playing field, imho.

My suggestion is that smaller, part-time drum corps have limits that correspond to the reality of the situation and provide a hittable target for those who want to start new corps. Seeing what most of the regional OC corps have on the field, 60 or so seems a reasonable target. Again, if a current OC corps really has the ability to put 100 kids on the football field, stop playing against corps half your size and go compete with the big boys where they belong; either that, or work with DCI to create two separate part-time corps divisions; one for the few corps who have 100 members and can fill a football field, and another for people who want to put together smaller corps where they can compete in a different format. But if the current OC leadership ignores the realities of the situation re: membership and impact of the programming in the WC-Lite format, they'll be stuck in neutral for a long time to come.

InTheMood, I'd agree that Joe Blow, who knows nothing about drum corps, might look at the Small Town Cadets and think "hey, they were ok..." But Joe Blow DOESN'T go to drum corps shows; the audience at drum corps shows is made up of people who already know something about the game, the same way that most people at baseball games KNOW who the Yankees and Red Sox are, and how the game is played. Hoping that the totally uninitiated will somehow show up and start supporting small corps isn't a viable game plan, imho. The path to growth will necessarily involve finding a way to make smaller, part-time corps as attractive to the existing fanbase as the best World Class corps. To my mind, that would involve making it different enough from WC to make it its own game.

[ajwdad]

Just butting in to clarify something. Although many WC corps have a stated minimum age, there is no rule in DCI WC that mandates a minimum age for any marching member. My son started in a WC corps at 13 and I know of other cases in recent years as young as 12. There are some WC corps that state that their minimum age is 16 or a graduating HS senior, but there is no rule that prohibits a very talented and mature 8 year old from marching. Maybe common sense prohibits it, but no written rule.

Hi Dave.,

You are right. Then create a minimum age to make room for younger marchers in Open. (18 comes to mind), At any rate, I am against raising the age in Open without doing the same in World.

[doylejd]

I think that mobrien has the right idea here. My friends and I, being the radical youth who marched WGI in addition to, or in some cases instead of, DCI were discussing how long it would be before WGI introduces a brass and/or wind division and kills DCI's Open Class.

I now run an independent WGI percussion ensemble, and let me tell you, after you get through securing instruments, it is pretty darn cheap to run a group like this. To manage 30 members and do two or three local shows and one out of state show is less than $30k a season. Each member is charged a little under $1000 and it covers 100% of operating costs. If you doubled the size of the group, added a few more out of state shows, and threw brass in the mix, it would be a heck of a lot cheaper than running a group that does what a current Open Class group does. Because of the low (in comparison) cost, there would be more units starting up, and more local competition, which would eliminate the need to tour as much.

There are several reasons why WGI is exploding right now: It is easier for the kids to do weekends only as opposed to all summer, the groups are easier to manage and cost less money, there's a scholastic division, there is less of a need to tour, but most importantly there are no pre-concieved notions of what a WGI group can or cannot be, and that's why the envelope gets pushed every year, and that's what keeps kids coming back.

So, those of you saying this idea is too outlandish for DCI, you're probably right. Let's have them continue to try to do what they are doing and watch as Open Class dwindles. Mobrien, let WGI use this idea and make it successful. ;)