Questions regarding "The G8"

[stevedb1975]

I know this subject has been beat to death but I have my own questions regarding the whole issue.

MY FIRST QUESTION

- If the idea is to have shows that feature "the 8 finest drum corps in the world", how can we know we are really getting that?

When you look at last year's list of top 12 finalists, there is something very important to note. ALL of them have been in the top 5 before with the exception of the Blue Knights who have only been one away in 6th place. Furthermore, NOT all of the corps who are part of the G8 have ALWAYS been in the top 8 and the Blue Devils are the ONLY corps who have not placed out of the top 5 since 1974. Which brings me to....

MY SECOND QUESTION

- Why should the corps CURRENTLY named "The G8" get the additional money (which is REALLY what the whole thing is about, whether they want to admit it or not).

I know, I know. They say it's all based on "making the top 8 three consecutive years" or whatever. But even with that requirement, there is no promise that each of those 8 drum corps will be in the top 8 in 2011 and for that matter, there is no promise that each of them will even be in the top 12 finals. There are corps outside of the top 12 that have been in the top 8 and are no longer. It's not unheard of either, to see a corps go from 7th or 8th and not make the finals the following year.

So why do the current "G8" corps feel they deserve to be considered such an elite group? There is no promise that those corps will be the top 8 again. In fact, I'm betting Madison knocks at least one of those corps out next year. If so, will there be a NEW G8 the following year? How can any of this truly be justified when in this VERY competitive activity, the "elite" is something that changes and quite frequently? If we were going to really narrow it down, The Blue Devils are the only ones who have truly proven the kind of consistency it takes to be in "a separate league of their own".

Thoughts?

Edited April 19, 2011 by stevedb1975

[Shamu89]

I know this subject has been beat to death but I have my own questions regarding the whole issue.

MY FIRST QUESTION

- If the idea is to have shows that feature "the 8 finest drum corps in the world", how can we know we are really getting that?

They don't claim to feature the 8 finest drum corps in the world. The claim to feature:

"Eight of the World's Most Elite Drum Corps"

They're not saying that these are #1-8. Just eight out of an un-stated number.

This all refers to the TOC, not the G8 proposal which was killed. That's a different matter, different discussion, and I hope we're not opening that can of worms again.

Edited April 19, 2011 by Shamu89

[Eaglebac]

You're right - the subject has been beaten to death!

My initial thought: Does it really matter if one of the "outsider" corps is scoring higher at the time of each G8 show?

Even if Madison (for example) is scoring higher than one of the G8 corps next year, it doesn't mean that they are one of the "finest 8 corps". Like it or not, the G8 shows will be featuring the corps that are *currently* the finest in the world.

As for your second question, they should get additional money because they will bring in additional money. Simple as that! No one is promising that the current top 8 will remain the top 8...and frankly, it doesn't really matter. In drum corps, "elite" doesn't actually change as frequently as you suggest. Over the past 5 years, there have only been a handful of occasions when one of the G8 has actually finished outside the top 8.

These corps have worked hard and any group that has achieved consistent success deserves to feel like it is elite.

[BlooContraGuy]

I know this subject has been beat to death but I have my own questions regarding the whole issue.

MY FIRST QUESTION

- If the idea is to have shows that feature "the 8 finest drum corps in the world", how can we know we are really getting that?

When you look at last year's list of top 12 finalists, there is something very important to note. ALL of them have been in the top 5 before with the exception of the Blue Knights who have only been one away in 6th place. Furthermore, NOT all of the corps who are part of the G8 have ALWAYS been in the top 8 and the Blue Devils are the ONLY corps who have not placed out of the top 5 since 1974. Which brings me to....

MY SECOND QUESTION

- Why should the corps CURRENTLY named "The G8" get the additional money (which is REALLY what the whole thing is about, whether they want to admit it or not).

I know, I know. They say it's all based on "making the top 8 three consecutive years" or whatever. But even with that requirement, there is no promise that each of those 8 drum corps will be in the top 8 in 2011 and for that matter, there is no promise that each of them will even be in the top 12 finals. There are corps outside of the top 12 that have been in the top 8 and are no longer. It's not unheard of either, to see a corps go from 7th or 8th and not make the finals the following year.

So why do the current "G8" corps feel they deserve to be considered such an elite group? There is no promise that those corps will be the top 8 again. In fact, I'm betting Madison knocks at least one of those corps out next year. If so, will there be a NEW G8 the following year? How can any of this truly be justified when in this VERY competitive activity, the "elite" is something that changes and quite frequently? If we were going to really narrow it down, The Blue Devils are the only ones who have truly proven the kind of consistency it takes to be in "a separate league of their own".

Thoughts?

I'm glad that you care so much to ask these questions.

Yes, the corps participating in the Tournament of Champions can change from year to year, based on the previous year's Finals placements.

And to be quite honest, yes the Blue Devils have an incredible track record. But they are NOT the only corps that has done incredible things. And the top 8 from last year are certainly NOT the only corps to do great things either! This ToC is just a way to try something new, and these corps are only the corps who placed 1-8 on one day at the end of one season. If there are other corps deserving the spot, they can earn it for next season by showing up and performing the hell out of their show on Saturday August 13th, 2011.

And the only reason the ToC are using the previous year's top 8 and not the current top 8 is because the corps need to have plans set for touring the country months in advance, and it simply would not be practical to have to guess where their next show would be. This has been discussed, go read up on this at DCI.org or any of the [numerous] threads on the subject here on DCP.

[BRASSO]

Like it or not, the G8 shows will be featuring the corps that are *currently* the finest in the world.

The conventional definition of " currently " is.... " now "... or " immediately "... or " in progress "

It is dubious at best when we choose these Corps as" the finest in the world" based upon previous Corps performances from a combination of least 12 to 36 months ago. All these Corps shows this year will be different from previous years shows, and the performers will be different, and the staffs in some cases will be different as well. Nowhere in any other competitive sport is what you did over a year ago relevent to how you are perceived " currently ". If we are saying that these 8 Corps are " currently " the best 8 Corps, then in actuality we are agreeing that we currently have a slotted system set up for this year within the World Class Division. Which is fine. It's just that I thought some of us believed that we do not have " slotting " in DCI. We need to be consistent, and we can't have it both ways. We either have in place a slotted system this year within the World Class Division that is based upon how a Corps did in the past, or we have a system in place that does not acknowledge that what you did in the past as being " currently " relevent to whether or not a Corps is one of the 8 best in the world. That said, there's nothing inherently wrong with a couple of extra shows this year by 8 Corps teaming up together to do them , and perhaps do some different things at these venues on a trial basis too, imo.

Edited April 19, 2011 by BRASSO

[BozzlyB]

You're right - the subject has been beaten to death!

My initial thought: Does it really matter if one of the "outsider" corps is scoring higher at the time of each G8 show?

Even if Madison (for example) is scoring higher than one of the G8 corps next year, it doesn't mean that they are one of the "finest 8 corps". Like it or not, the G8 shows will be featuring the corps that are *currently* the finest in the world.

As for your second question, they should get additional money because they will bring in additional money. Simple as that! No one is promising that the current top 8 will remain the top 8...and frankly, it doesn't really matter. In drum corps, "elite" doesn't actually change as frequently as you suggest. Over the past 5 years, there have only been a handful of occasions when one of the G8 has actually finished outside the top 8.

These corps have worked hard and any group that has achieved consistent success deserves to feel like it is elite.

That shouldn't matter as scores from different shows are not comparable in any valid sense. The web sites that tally which corps is in which place based on their scores on any given night regardless of what show are fun to watch, but completely pointless.

[BozzlyB]

You're right - the subject has been beaten to death!

My initial thought: Does it really matter if one of the "outsider" corps is scoring higher at the time of each G8 show?

Even if Madison (for example) is scoring higher than one of the G8 corps next year, it doesn't mean that they are one of the "finest 8 corps". Like it or not, the G8 shows will be featuring the corps that are *currently* the finest in the world.

As for your second question, they should get additional money because they will bring in additional money. Simple as that! No one is promising that the current top 8 will remain the top 8...and frankly, it doesn't really matter. In drum corps, "elite" doesn't actually change as frequently as you suggest. Over the past 5 years, there have only been a handful of occasions when one of the G8 has actually finished outside the top 8.

These corps have worked hard and any group that has achieved consistent success deserves to feel like it is elite.

I don't agree with that. The TOC this year features LAST years best 8 as was determined finals night. This years TOC shows are NOT an implication of this years best 8 corps.

[BRASSO]

I don't agree with that. The TOC this year features LAST years best 8 as was determined finals night. This years TOC shows are NOT an implication of this years best 8 corps.

If it's fair and open competition, what one has done in the past is irrelevent. So yes, this is accurate.

For those of us that want variety and surprises in Corps placement, one would naturally think that they'd want to see one or more Corps break through the set up of this TOC 8 slotted group of Corps starting out this competitive season.. Then this whole concept of the systematic slotting within the World Class Division starting out a new competitive season might just go up in flames for good. I would consider that change to be a good change. I'm not saying that the TOC Corps will automatically benefit this year in placement from being slotted coming into this season.That's a leap I'm not prepared to make. I'm just saying that the environment for such to occur is present if we are not all careful, that's all.

Edited April 19, 2011 by BRASSO

[emc2]

The conventional definition of " currently " is.... " now "... or " immediately "... or " in progress "

It is dubious at best when we choose these Corps as" the finest in the world" based upon previous Corps performances from a combination of least 12 to 36 months ago. All these Corps shows this year will be different from previous years shows, and the performers will be different, and the staffs in some cases will be different as well. Nowhere in any other competitive sport is what you did over a year ago relevent to how you are perceived " currently ". If we are saying that these 8 Corps are " currently " the best 8 Corps, then in actuality we are agreeing that we currently have a slotted system set up for this year within the World Class Division. Which is fine. It's just that I thought some of us believed that we do not have " slotting " in DCI. We need to be consistent, and we can't have it both ways. We either have in place a slotted system this year within the World Class Division that is based upon how a Corps did in the past, or we have a system in place that does not acknowledge that what you did in the past as being " currently " relevent to whether or not a Corps is one of the 8 best in the world. That said, there's nothing inherently wrong with a couple of extra shows this year by 8 Corps teaming up together to do them , and perhaps do some different things at these venues on a trial basis too, imo.

What they should of done is take the past 12 years and average the placement over that period of time. that is imo.

[BozzlyB]

If it's fair and open competition, what one has done in the past is irrelevent. So yes, this is accurate.

For those of us that want variety and surprises in Corps placement, one would naturally think that they'd want to see one or more Corps break through the set up of this TOC 8 slotted group of Corps starting out this competitive season.. Then this whole concept of the systematic slotting within the World Class Division starting out a new competitive season might just go up in flames for good. I would consider that change to be a good change. I'm not saying that the TOC Corps will automatically benefit this year in placement from being slotted coming into this season.That's a leap I'm not prepared to make. I'm just saying that the environment for such to occur is present if we are not all careful, that's all.

I would like to see regular movement in and out of the G-8, that would lend validity to the notion that it is open for competition to be one of next years TOC corps. It can not be ingored, however, that most of the current TOC corps are VERY unlikely to place lower than 8th, really only leaving the possibilitiy of a few "open spots" on next years TOC roster. It goes without saying that I hope "MY" corps comes out and whoops ayus every year and continues to move up the ladder. It is on the corps who want to be in next years TOC shows to come out and prove they are deserving in the eyes of the judges of course, in the end it's simply their opinion that determines the TOC corps, not some conspiracy among the current TOC corps as some would have you believe.

Edited April 19, 2011 by BozzlyB