Questions regarding "The G8"

[danielray]

[/b][/u]- Why should the corps CURRENTLY named "The G8" get the additional money (which is REALLY what the whole thing is about, whether they want to admit it or not).

Here is a list of the bands performing on this summer's Vans Warped Tour.

http://vanswarpedtour.com/bands

Do you think they all get paid exactly the same amount?

What do you think might be the criteria for determining their individual rate of pay per each performance?

Edited April 20, 2011 by danielray

[emc2]

They were back in the 1930s.

Once the prelim/final format settled into place in 1928-1929, a policy was put into place such that the defending champion was not required to compete in the preliminary round. A look at the scores shows quite a few corps showed up to defend their titles in the American Legion finals without competing in the prelim round (Frankford in '30, Harvey Seeds in '31, Aykroyd/Marlborough in '34 and '35, San Gabriel in '36, and Commonwealth Edison in '37). In that same period, two champs did not defend their titles (Harvey Seeds in '32 and San Gabriel in '38), and we don't have the prelim scores to verify what Salem did in '33.

Not sure exactly when the policy went away. Marlborough won the 1938 crown, but competed in the '39 prelims anyway. Yet Doremus, the 1939 champ, had a bye into the '40 finals. Commonwealth Edison, winner of the 1940 finals, competed in the '41 prelim round, as did all subsequent defending champs to my knowledge.

I might be able to get some info from Marlboro post on the subject. I grew up there.

[BRASSO]

2b or not 2b is correct. There was a period of time where the previous year's champion was allowed to bypass prelims and was seeded directly into finals.

When did this happen ? What Corps was allowed to skip prelims and automatically go right into the Finals ? And just as importantly, ( as the poster stated here ) what fully qualified prelims Corps was disallowed participation at Finals because the Defending Champion from the previous year was automatically allowed to skip over them and go to the Finals ?

Like I said, I'm persuadable... just give me the simple answers to my questions here, as I'm not aware of this ever happening before at all. I do know fully qualified Prelims Corps that made Finals and were Defending Champions in the early years sometimes were allowed to perform last at Finals ( as Defending Champions ) But this is much different than what is being claimed here.

Edited April 20, 2011 by BRASSO

[bluecoats88]

No they wern't. To my knowledge, no former Champion was allowed in to " defend their title " in any American Legion National Championship ever. Some never even went back to defend their title the following year as the convention was held too far away, or was in October and some Champions did not go back for a couple of years to " defend their title ".

Are you thinking of a few examples where a fully qualified Corps from the Prelims ( TOP 12) PERFORMED LAST in competition on Finals night because they were the Defending Champion ? If so, this might explain what you're talking about here. But for the record, no Corps to my knowledge ever got an automatic pass in prelims to then go on to compete on Finals Night. And no prelims Corps was left out of a Finals because a Corps that was Defending Champion automatically jumped them by virtue of their previous years placement, and this disallowed the participation in the Finals by the fully qualified Prelims Corps. It's never happened in either the VFW or the American Legion National Championships that I'm aware of anyway.

But I'm certainly open to be shown a date and time when such a thing has occured as you claim. I'm persuadable. But I'm just not familiar with this at all.

Actually during the 80's The previous years finalists were seeded into semi finals and the previous years 13-25 corps were seeded into quarter finals. Prelims consisted of any corps that didn't make top 25 the season before (or any disqualified corps from the season before (Les Eclipses 1984)). The top 12 from prelims moved up to quarters to compete with the 13-25 corps from the previous year. The top 13 from Quarters moved up to compete with the top 12 from the previous year. The top twelve from semis moved into finals. The only exceptions to this rule was when a corps that had placed in finals for 3 consecutive years and then did not make finals the previous year, they were still seeded into Semis. This happened in 1985 when the Bridgemen who made finals from 1978-1983 then missed in 1984 were automatically seeded into semi finals. There was a tie for 12th in quarter finals so 13 corps moved up to semi finals to compete with the previous years top 12 and the bridgemen. The bridgemen finished dead last in Semis that year and placed 26th, but because of the automatic seeding the still finished higher than a number of corps that consistently beat them during the season.

[perc2100]

Pretty simple questions/answers, really:

I know this subject has been beat to death but I have my own questions regarding the whole issue.

MY FIRST QUESTION

- If the idea is to have shows that feature "the 8 finest drum corps in the world", how can we know we are really getting that?

Yes: the corps at those shows are last year's Top 8, so by definition they are "8 of the finest corps in the world" based on last year's competitive success.

MY SECOND QUESTION

- Why should the corps CURRENTLY named "The G8" get the additional money (which is REALLY what the whole thing is about, whether they want to admit it or not).

Because they're the ones organizing the shows and performing in them? The the "B8" ("Bottom 8?") corps want to put on their own events in an attempt to generate more revenue, more power to them.

[BRASSO]

They were back in the 1930s.

Once the prelim/final format settled into place in 1928-1929, a policy was put into place such that the defending champion was not required to compete in the preliminary round. A look at the scores shows quite a few corps showed up to defend their titles in the American Legion finals without competing in the prelim round (Frankford in '30, Harvey Seeds in '31, Aykroyd/Marlborough in '34 and '35, San Gabriel in '36, and Commonwealth Edison in '37). In that same period, two champs did not defend their titles (Harvey Seeds in '32 and San Gabriel in '38), and we don't have the prelim scores to verify what Salem did in '33.

Not sure exactly when the policy went away. Marlborough won the 1938 crown, but competed in the '39 prelims anyway. Yet Doremus, the 1939 champ, had a bye into the '40 finals. Commonwealth Edison, winner of the 1940 finals, competed in the '41 prelim round, as did all subsequent defending champs to my knowledge.

Can you provide a link to these Prelims and Finals scores ? I do know that some of the Prelims scores are definately missing from the 30's. It does not mean the Prelims were not held, or that Defending Champs could bypass the prelims altogether.

By the way, anybody want to guess where the American Legion Nationals Drum and Bugle Corps Championships were held in 1927 ? I know, most here probably don't care. But those that do, might find it amusing that the American Legion Championships in 1927 were held in... Paris, France.( yup, no kiddin'. )

Edited April 20, 2011 by BRASSO

[cowtown]

I’m not a fan of the G-8 or this tournament of champions junk but I think the argument that they are not all champions or might not be the top 8 corps is a sideshow, does a disservice to the real issue and makes it seem rather silly if not petty when it is an important issue

I think it comes down to goals of the corps, is it to grow DCI and Drum corps in general or is it to serve your own organization even at the expensive of DCI and the other corps.

I think the answer is clear by reviewing the G-7 proposals, seeing which corps are competing against the fan network, branding their own products and frankly, stacking the rules in their favor.

The inclusion of the 8th corps was a little late to be seen as anything other than a feel good, PR grab pretending it’s not about them and somehow it’s fair and merit based

I suggest you look at the Firstbeat and Nightbeat shows to whats really going on, one is ToC and the other isn’t. Look at the prices, one peaks out at $75 the other $28, one is on a Monday night…then check the corps schedules around the show, the following day or two. It reminds me a lot of when some of these same corps tanked DCM.

I’m offended by the difference in value that has been set between the two shows, I’m offended that none of the G-8 corps would pick up the Firstbeat show and help the draw or bring in a higher ticket price – isn’t that a Crown produced show? Where are they, why aren’t they at a localish show? What is their cut for producing a show that they are not in, should we imply they are stealing off the back of others corps too?

Oh, they can claim production cost but really, part of that cost is the money to the corps and if the other cost are so high, then why host a show there even? Then we get into the promotion of the G-8, they look to have a separate promotional budget, combined with the extra gas money to travel to their extra shows, it looks like DCI is already being bleed.

I have no problem with the G-7 being all about themselves but I don’t think they should be allowed to do it at the expense of DCI. They need to leave DCI and do their own thing and the DCI corps need to reaffirm or re-evaluate their mission statement, purpose of DCI and decide their own fate just as the G-7

My fear is that the G-7 will tank DCI as they march towards their super-corps model which they claim is inevitable, which it’s not, that is a lie. It is instead a self serving, self fulfilling prophecy done within DCI as a infra-structure fan grab

Aks the others corps if they are working so hard just to be disposed of and have their histories sold for the benefit of the G-7

I don’t feel the G-7 and DCI have the same goals anymore, I think they need to be honest about it and pursue their own paths as their current paths are conflicting. It’s not all for one, it’s all for a few, sorry loser

[BozzlyB]

Here is a list of the bands performing on this summer's Vans Warped Tour.

http://vanswarpedtour.com/bands

Do you think they all get paid exactly the same amount?

What do you think might be the criteria for determining their individual rate of pay per each performance?

Oh gee I don't know..... how big of a draw they are? I know I know just taking a stab in the dark there.....

Edited April 20, 2011 by BozzlyB

[Plan9]

I'm not a fan of the G-8 or this tournament of champions junk but I think the argument that they are not all champions or might not be the top 8 corps is a sideshow, does a disservice to the real issue and makes it seem rather silly if not petty when it is an important issue

I think it comes down to goals of the corps, is it to grow DCI and Drum corps in general or is it to serve your own organization even at the expensive of DCI and the other corps.

I think the answer is clear by reviewing the G-7 proposals, seeing which corps are competing against the fan network, branding their own products and frankly, stacking the rules in their favor.

The inclusion of the 8th corps was a little late to be seen as anything other than a feel good, PR grab pretending it's not about them and somehow it's fair and merit based

I suggest you look at the Firstbeat and Nightbeat shows to whats really going on, one is ToC and the other isn't. Look at the prices, one peaks out at $75 the other $28, one is on a Monday night…then check the corps schedules around the show, the following day or two. It reminds me a lot of when some of these same corps tanked DCM.

I'm offended by the difference in value that has been set between the two shows, I'm offended that none of the G-8 corps would pick up the Firstbeat show and help the draw or bring in a higher ticket price isn't that a Crown produced show? Where are they, why aren't they at a localish show? What is their cut for producing a show that they are not in, should we imply they are stealing off the back of others corps too?

Oh, they can claim production cost but really, part of that cost is the money to the corps and if the other cost are so high, then why host a show there even? Then we get into the promotion of the G-8, they look to have a separate promotional budget, combined with the extra gas money to travel to their extra shows, it looks like DCI is already being bleed.

I have no problem with the G-7 being all about themselves but I don't think they should be allowed to do it at the expense of DCI. They need to leave DCI and do their own thing and the DCI corps need to reaffirm or re-evaluate their mission statement, purpose of DCI and decide their own fate just as the G-7

My fear is that the G-7 will tank DCI as they march towards their super-corps model which they claim is inevitable, which it's not, that is a lie. It is instead a self serving, self fulfilling prophecy done within DCI as a infra-structure fan grab

Aks the others corps if they are working so hard just to be disposed of and have their histories sold for the benefit of the G-7

I don't feel the G-7 and DCI have the same goals anymore, I think they need to be honest about it and pursue their own paths as their current paths are conflicting. It's not all for one, it's all for a few, sorry loser

We continue to make huge assumptions and repeat them as if they are fact. So much of the debate and discussion in our country these days is built on "fear"........."if we do this, this will happen!" Such is the case with the G-8. I have always felt that the effort of these forward thinking directors was to expand the activity to new audiences; and to change the format for success, much like other entertainment activities that previously existed and were declining (i.e. The Circus, NASCAR, Professional Wrestling, Singing & Dancing shows, etc). Someone took an old idea and re-tooled to open it up and break the barrier between the first row and the field.

The old guard on DCP have largely made up their minds that this is bad for DCI and none of them have a clue as to how this will turn out. We need to stop fearing and poking sticks at this thing and give it a chance to succeed.

Edited April 20, 2011 by Plan9

[cowtown]

Here is a list of the bands performing on this summer's Vans Warped Tour.

http://vanswarpedtour.com/bands

Do you think they all get paid exactly the same amount?

What do you think might be the criteria for determining their individual rate of pay per each performance?

I use to produce rock shows so I can explain this a bit

Bands have guarantees in addition to productions costs and concert clauses; you need to examine all, check the market and run numbers before you book a show. Sometimes, bands will have a bonus clause for a sell out and even if they don’t its good to bonus them as it good for your business

You can often get bands on festivals or group tours for less than their guarantee for an individual show. It’s good PR for a band to headline a tour, it’s a series of dates so a bigger payout overall, less contracts, production is shared so cheaper, bigger overall production budget for the fest that helps the headliner, usually shorter set times, less of a burden to draw, share the other bands draws and tours are easier than individual shows. You can also get breaks on bands through the booking agent often if you take another lesser known band or have a good history with that agent.

True, headliners do get often get contracted the highest pay of the bill for their day, some demand that but they don’t always get the highest pay. I know record companies that have subsidize bands, taking less pay to keep them at the top of the bill as a push play.

Many years back I booked a show with Voivod, Faith no more and soundgarden – sold as a package tour, in that order of headline, reverse order to play...by the time they got to my stop, Faith no more had the hit, was the real draw but second on the bill, Soundgarden had the buzz, could have sold me out and was first on the bill and no one knew or cared about Voivoid whom only brought in about 5% of the door – thank god too because when the firemen showed up to bust me for overstocking against code (they saw the line outside) Voivoid was headlining and the placed cleared out. My opening acts were bonus-ed to highest paid even against the contracted rates. Soundgarden did also get payed for that show by their record company (don't know the rate). It was thrit first record/ tour, they also sold their record at a lower cost to get it in people's hand....so... That story is not all that unique a lot can happen between the time you book a band and a band shows up. It’s never that clear cut, one-offs never work, there is always a bigger picture and a greater relationship in play, it’s a business

I heard the 3 Cs show tanked last year – should we book upon that?