Todd Tanji Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Did he really just call us "lunkheads"? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fsubone Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 You're not being serious are you? The worst part is, I think he actually is trying to be serious. Yes, shows have themes and substance. But he's really trying way too hard. He's probably the guy who tries to analyze Hardy Boys books as a kid for their "sub-text". Yes, the shows have a point, but if you're more worried about that than the show, then I really don't think this is the activity for you. The show designers have to worry about what their show means, and they can explain it, or leave it up to the audience to get. Phantom released an explanation of their show, and it was nothing like the OP put, so I'm going to go with Phantom's design team on this one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaddyt Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 I'm just shocked at the ignorant “Just enjoy the show” and “sometimes a cigar is just a cigar” comments on this board, and I assume show designers are appalled reading this board, too. No corps show designer or composer is as casual about these pieces as you lunkheads. They put effort into designing their shows, and their work is to be judged on their intentions. If they choose not to have a theme or any social relevance, then they need to tell us why. This isn't abstract art. Clearly, drum corps show design has advanced to the point where music of substance, and universal themes of substance, even literary subject matters are being addressed. Designers today have a thematic argument in mind. The activity has clearly evolved beyond the Burt Bacharach medley type show. That's not my interpretation, that's a common fact. Michaeal Boo knows this well, he's a veteran reviewer. Why he's shying away from sophisticated criticism when the activity needs him most is probably some personal popularity issue. And this year, beyond any other, shows us that drum corps shows have reached a level of sophistication that they are works of art unto themselves, with carefully defined points of view, thematic arguments and even social underpinnings-- from Spartacus to the age of broken technology. Hell, even the Velvet Knights had a theme of comedy in their old shows. But to hear the rash of ignorant comments on this board, you would think drum corps fans were unable to think about themes and how they're staged-- beyond the “loud, louder, loudest” paradigm. The preppy professional guy in a golf shirt who sat next to me at a recent show said “Who cares, they’re in-your-face loud.” Um, really? You’re that shallow? There’s a freaking show about hell in front of us, or a show about Juliet’s suicide, or a show about the absurdity of life, or a show making fun of iconic American images like Jaws eating the Valkyrie singing opera in the Velvet Knights show in the 80’s, but there’s absolutely no thought in your mind about the meaning behind the music you’re listening to or how it’s staged here? And you have a college degree? Not even one tiny little bitty thought like “this music defines the age of American innocence?” or “this reminds me how love survives” or “I think the designers of this show are telling us something about how we treat outsiders , or human foibles or the ridiculousness of authority?” Born in the USA? The Firebird Suite? Stand By Your Man? London Calling? Music of substance, like these pieces, have a social impact and are great because there’s meaning behind the music. There’s a reason these pieces are played by the people who play them. (I can’t believe I’m even talking about this, it’s so rudimentary.) But to read the comments on this board, including those by gun-shy veteran reviewer Michael Boo, one would think drum corps was only about technique and performance with “no caption on the balance sheet for social relevance.” That comment is so avoidant, and so ignorant, you wonder how anyone could stay in this activity so long and publically say that themes of substance are optional, and “sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.” No show designer, or dedicated critic would call their show “just a cigar.” Or “art for art’s sake.” That’s so avoidant, it’s sad. Not all themed shows are good. Not all themed shows are executed well, but to summarily dismiss this trend of show concepts of substance, especially at this critical juncture in the activity's evolution, or to avoid discussion of them entirely proves that the people marching in these shows and the people watching them are incapable of freaking understanding the themes in them. Did anyone on here for one second think about what Santa Clara’s show is about? Answer the following basic questions. Don’t avoid them, don’t joke about how I should take a chill pill, or how drum corps isn’t about that. Drum corps is about this. --What is the lasting significance of a Burt Bacharach medley in history? --What is memorable or impactful about a Burt Bacharach medley? --How do the visual themes of obelisks and gazebos tie in to these Burt Bacharach tunes? --How do the themes of Burt Bacharach directly relate the lives of these young performers and why they’re playing it? Answer the freaking questions. ;) My God, people. You’re half dead and you haven’t even taken a moment to recognize why music was selected, and what meaning the music has on its performers and audience. “But it sure is loud.” blahblahblah Dude, you are digging. "How do the themes of Burt Bacharach directly relate to the lives of these young performers and why they're playing it?" ... really? You're making all of us legitimate BD "haters" look bad by taking arguments against them to extremes never before thought possible. How did Bartok directly relate to the members of Star and SCV? Or Bernstein to Cadets? Copland to Crown? Please... we're all dying to know how these lives were shaped by playing and marching music from these composers. While you're at it, drop me a line as to how James Horner's score from An American Tale directly impacted me in high school. Drum corps and the marching arts are a lot of different things to many different people. I'd be shocked however, to learn that folks use them as a psychological case studies of musical and/or literary relevance. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Boo Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 ... Clearly, drum corps show design has advanced to the point where music of substance, and universal themes of substance, even literary subject matters are being addressed. Designers today have a thematic argument in mind. The activity has clearly evolved beyond the Burt Bacharach medley type show. That's not my interpretation, that's a common fact. Michael Boo knows this well, he's a veteran reviewer. Why he's shying away from sophisticated criticism when the activity needs him most is probably some personal popularity issue. ... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bawker Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Okay, here goes: I'm just shocked at the ignorant “Just enjoy the show” and “sometimes a cigar is just a cigar” comments on this board, and I assume show designers are appalled reading this board, too. No corps show designer or composer is as casual about these pieces as you lunkheads. They put effort into designing their shows, and their work is to be judged on their intentions. If they choose not to have a theme or any social relevance, then they need to tell us why. This isn't abstract art. Is there effort involved in selecting these pieces? Sure. Enough to create a loose thematic string that goes across the show . . .however nebulous that string may be. And you're right. . .it's not abstract art. It's not even original art. It's pastiche. Even if it's done well, it's still (for 98% of the music and visuals) borrowing from some other source. The CSO plays Verdi better than Phantom ever will. Guimard and Grasset did Art Deco better than the Bluecoats ever will. And so on. To ascribe more intellectual depth and breadth to these shows is completely on the viewer, not some sort of requirement for deep enjoyment of the show. Troopers playing their infinity chord hits the lizard-brain . . .oh forgive me, let's use your words . . ."that sure is loud" . . . and that kind of emotional response is just as resonant as intellectualizing Juliet's struggle as a woman or garnering a deeper understanding of Ligeti. There's no "right way" to enjoy drum corps, but it sure as hell isn't high art . . .on any level. Clearly, drum corps show design has advanced to the point where music of substance, and universal themes of substance, even literary subject matters are being addressed. Designers today have a thematic argument in mind. The activity has clearly evolved beyond the Burt Bacharach medley type show. That's not my interpretation, that's a common fact. And this year, beyond any other, shows us that drum corps shows have reached a level of sophistication that they are works of art unto themselves, with carefully defined points of view, thematic arguments and even social underpinnings-- from Spartacus to the age of broken technology. Hell, even the Velvet Knights had a theme of comedy in their old shows. Again, a loose thematic string doesn't necessarily equate to some sort of new intellectual depth. For example, there's not much to take away from Spirit of Atlanta this year aside from the obvious: you have a reference point from "LA Confidential" and/or film noir, there's an obvious plot laid down by voice over, the show ends. There's really no more thematic material in that to grab onto than there is in their 1990 show, watching "Atlanta" burn during the Civil War via another film reference ("Gone With the Wind"). 2011 isn't paying homage to Fritz Lang's later work any more than 1990 is somehow channeling Shelby Foote. Fact is, the way modern drum corps is . . .it's most certainly a "medley" type show for almost every unit now, even moreso than in the past. Designers overlay Rachmaninoff over Queen, Tchaikovsky with Schonberg and are forced to create rococo arrangements all in the name of creating a "complexity" to their book in order to score points in what the build-up system is now. That's not necessarily a criticism, just a way that things have evolved. But to hear the rash of ignorant comments on this board, you would think drum corps fans were unable to think about themes and how they're staged-- beyond the “loud, louder, loudest” paradigm. The preppy professional guy in a golf shirt who sat next to me at a recent show said “Who cares, they’re in-your-face loud.” Um, really? You’re that shallow? There’s a freaking show about hell in front of us, or a show about Juliet’s suicide, or a show about the absurdity of life, or a show making fun of iconic American images like Jaws eating the Valkyrie singing opera in the Velvet Knights show in the 80’s, but there’s absolutely no thought in your mind about the meaning behind the music you’re listening to or how it’s staged here? And you have a college degree? Not even one tiny little bitty thought like “this music defines the age of American innocence?” or “this reminds me how love survives” or “I think the designers of this show are telling us something about how we treat outsiders , or human foibles or the ridiculousness of authority?” To repeat: what you take away from a show is your business. If you go for the loud brass, then that's your thing. If you go for the precision, that's your thing too. It's not an intellectual pissing contest. The validity of response to say "#### YEAH!" in the Scouts 1995 show (guilty) is the same as questioning the deeper subtext of war, innocence and children in Suncoast 1988. Born in the USA? The Firebird Suite? Stand By Your Man? London Calling? Music of substance, like these pieces, have a social impact and are great because there’s meaning behind the music. There’s a reason these pieces are played by the people who play them. (I can’t believe I’m even talking about this, it’s so rudimentary.) But to read the comments on this board, including those by gun-shy veteran reviewer Michael Boo, one would think drum corps was only about technique and performance with “no caption on the balance sheet for social relevance.” That comment is so avoidant, and so ignorant, you wonder how anyone could stay in this activity so long and publically say that themes of substance are optional, and “sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.” No show designer, or dedicated critic would call their show “just a cigar.” Or “art for art’s sake.” That’s so avoidant, it’s sad. Really, drum corps isn't good at nitty-gritty, granular examination of the human condition, or anything else that requires a level of "insinuation" to it. With 150 performers and a limited timeframe (and instrumentation), your best bet is to splatter the emotion in big, dramatic strokes and hope some of it lands on your audience. 2008 Cadets tried to create a specific scenario of "social relevance" as you mention, loosely tied to the music. It fell flat, precisely because it *forced* that relevance onto the viewer: "This is the story, here is the nuance"; here is the maudlin attempt at trying to force you into "feeling" a certain way. That just doesn't work well with a medium like ours. The social and intellectual impact, as it were, (as mentioned earlier) of most drum corps shows is borrowed to create a pre-prescribed effect: BAC=Revolution=1812=nationalistic=Les Miz. Colts=Black Swan=Swan Lake=Black/White=good/evil. The pastiche of drum corps already has most of those emotional "buttons" pre-pressed for you. Any attempt at creating your own subtext as a designed fails most of the time due to time, instrumentation or rule issues. The borrowed pastiche is an a emotional and musical "shortcut" for the designers, and that's cool. It's the nature of the drum corps and marching band beast. Not all themed shows are good. Not all themed shows are executed well, but to summarily dismiss this trend of show concepts of substance, especially at this critical juncture in the activity's evolution, or to avoid discussion of them entirely proves that the people marching in these shows and the people watching them are incapable of freaking understanding the themes in them. Did anyone on here for one second think about what Santa Clara’s show is about? Are we supposed to? Are we supposed to consider secundal harmony in the ballad, rather than just enjoy it for what it is? Or consider 2011 as an extension of 2010, as some regard Ligeti to Bartok? Does that matter if you enjoy the show from a strictly nuts-and-bolts perspective? Answer the following basic questions. Don’t avoid them, don’t joke about how I should take a chill pill, or how drum corps isn’t about that. Drum corps is about this. Okay, I'll play. Drum corps is about this . . .to you. What is the lasting significance of a Burt Bacharach medley in history? Well, let's see: John Zorn did a album full of Burt's stuff. Tons of artists . . .from the Beach Boys to Steely Dan . . .cite him as an influence. Is he Verdi? Maybe not. But to deny he hasn't had some sort of effect on modern popular music is just as much folly as summarily dismissing him. What is memorable or impactful about a Burt Bacharach medley? Bacharach: Forever, and ever you'll stay in my heart And I will love you Forever, and ever we never will part Oh, how I love you Together, forever, that's how it must be. To live without you Would only mean heartbreak for me. Rota (added lyrics): A time for us, at last to see A life worthwhile for you and me And with our love, through tears and thorns We will endure as we pass surely through every storm A time for us, some day there'll be a new world A world of shining hope for you and me. Which one is really more memorable? Aren't both referencing "love"? And isn't that universal in its understanding, no matter who the composer is? How do the visual themes of obelisks and gazebos tie in to these Burt Bacharach tunes? Building a house into a home (at the end of the show) is more literal of an interpretation than Juliet running up to the podium (still alive, mind you) and lamenting a pith helmet, no? Both server their respective purpose, though. How do the themes of Burt Bacharach directly relate the lives of these young performers and why they’re playing it? Bacharach, as mentioned, touches on the same treacle most every artist (even Verdi and Mozart) does: love, loss, and so on. Dies Irae ain't "Say a Little Prayer", but emotionally, both are equal on the football field as they are scored and judged. The relevance to the performer is whatever they choose to make of it. Answer the freaking questions. ;) Done. Did I win a prize? My God, people. You’re half dead and you haven’t even taken a moment to recognize why music was selected, and what meaning the music has on its performers and audience. “But it sure is loud.” I'll ignore the attempted swipe at us plebeians and leave you with this: . . .the loud, my friend, is what makes it good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photographer Jim Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 (edited) Answer the following basic questions. Don’t avoid them, don’t joke about how I should take a chill pill, or how drum corps isn’t about that. Drum corps is about this. --What is the lasting significance of a Burt Bacharach medley in history? --What is memorable or impactful about a Burt Bacharach medley? --How do the visual themes of obelisks and gazebos tie in to these Burt Bacharach tunes? --How do the themes of Burt Bacharach directly relate the lives of these young performers and why they’re playing it? Answer the freaking questions. ;) My God, people. You’re half dead and you haven’t even taken a moment to recognize why music was selected, and what meaning the music has on its performers and audience. “But it sure is loud.” I think where you went wrong with all of this is when in your original post you said, "So, for the judges to award Blue Devils the win tonight over Phantom, they place impulsive pop whimsy above women's profound sense of self determination". The comment implies a classical syllogism of DC shows based on "more meaningful" themes should always defeat shows with "lesser" themes. PR's show has a more meaningful theme than BD's. Therefore, PR should always beat BD (given their present shows). There are two obvious flaws with this argument. First, the first major premise ignores the fact that DC shows are judged on many factors other than thematic content. And therefore a corps can quite easily be beaten by a corps having less meaningful thematic content if that corps' performance is "inferior" in other aspects. Having seen both shows live, and head-to-head, PR's performance was simply not up to the quality of the BD's performance, and thus, the judges were correct in scoring BD above PR, regardless of the importance one places on thematic content. Secondly, the premise also ignores the fact that thematic content is not currently a judging criteria. You may not agree that this should be the case, but to use the phrase you have been fond of using, "it's a fact". Beyond that, insistence on thematic content being the criteria for judging and placement in Drum Corps competitions becomes arrogant, self-grandizing, self indulgence. Yet another flaw in your rants, is the idea that because many of us do not accept your basic premises, we are incapable of understanding or appreciating a corps use of "meaningful themes", and that we don't consider them when thinking about any given show. We're quite capable, thank you very much, we simply don't agree that that factor is the only one worth focusing on. And like it or not, disagreeing does not make us "ignorant", nor does it make us "lunkheads" or "shallow". It does, however, make us less concerned with our own self-importance. Anyway, not to end by being dismissed for not answering your "freakin'questions": Lasting importance of BB medley on history: doubtful you'll agree but as posted on the BD web-site, so I assume this somewhat reflects BD's design team's thinking. "On an almost daily basis, Burt Bacharach and his incomparable lyricist, Hal David, sat in a windowless cubicle and saw the outside world in intricate time signatures, diminished chord sequences, soaring melodies and thought provoking prose. Taken instrumentally, Bacharach's music screams with passion. From the mightiest orchestral swell to the quietest keyboard glissando, you are always made to feel as if you're either about to be loved or about to be left. Whether it's that first glance or the last door slam is of little consequence. You feel a part of something - something big." — Serene Dominic from his book Burt Bacharach Song By Song So, I take that as a musical appeal to the emotions involved with love found or love lost. But, hey, that's just me. Memorable or impactful about a BB medley? For me, Bacharach's music is very intertwined with life events I experienced at the time he and Hal David were composing/writing. "Meaningless" to you, but highly significant to me. (and yes, I do have a college degree. Several in fact. In multiple disciplines actually.) Significance of obelisks etc. to the tunes? Literal correspondence to lyrics in AHINAH. How do tune's themes relate to corps member's lives? I'm not sure that they do, although I can't really speak for current corps members. But then again when I have discussed past BD shows with corps members (their more avant guard shows at that) they were mostly concerned with "the music is sooooo cool", and "the drill is killer". I guess sometimes a cigar really is just a cigar. It really too bad that rather than offer up what might be a very interesting discussion about the purpose, place, and impotence of thematic content in drum corps, or a discussion about how it might be used in judging corps performances, you chose instead to lecture the lunkheads on DCP and insult those who did not agree with you. Oh well. Have a nice day. (And to think I wrote all of that using one finger on a mobile device! Hmmmmmmm ................. Maybe I Am A lunkhead after all!) Edited July 6, 2011 by Photographer Jim 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Boo Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Did he really just call us "lunkheads"? Yes. Maybe there's a prize the rest of us don't know about for the most negative post ratings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fsubone Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Yes. Maybe there's a prize the rest of us don't know about for the most negative post ratings. Seems like it will be a two-horse race between Howdy and this guy.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photographer Jim Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 It's not an intellectual pissing contest. Wish I'd said that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaddyt Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Bawker, I'm guessing due to your Administrator status, you are recused of receiving either positive or negative responses to your posts. But your #55 above is a slam dunk. The only thing that could've made it better was if you did it in all caps, bolded, and at text size 7, thus implying the "loudest" post possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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