Todd Tanji Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 The biggest problem with this topic on DCP is that many posters believe that "demand" means "fast" or "large step size". It doesn't. I agree. Demand is very hard to assess. That's why it is better to score effect rather than demand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd Tanji Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 BS If two shows are equally "effective" but one is more demanding what happens then? And if drum corps should be judged as "entertainment" how come so many boring shows win over the years? And yes - thoughtful design matters - but it isn't the end-all end-all BS There is no caption or even subcaption called "Demand" for a good reason. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plan9 Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 Because as soon as you "lower your demand and hit your target perfectly" the activity suffers in the fact that the shows are of less and less quality. I honestly dont care if Corps A can run around, hit their dot, park and blow for 30 seconds, rinse and repeat for 11 minutes. I do care that Corps B can do intricate drill formations, run while playing, and captivate the audience when they make them think "are they really doing that? And are clean?? Its blowing my mind..." rather than "oh look they started moving again, that parade block sure is together... ooops they stopped... yay they are playing again...". As soon as higher execution is rewarded heavily over high demand the activity starts to fall apart because we see cleaner and easier shows because difficult shows will NEVER be as relatively clean as easier shows. And thus a difficult show can never win a championship if this trend continues. I am talking visually though, it is still very possible to have a great, difficult, musical program but have a very easy visual one. Sometimes when I read this stuff I think that some of you on DCP would be happy to see the corps all on 150 treadmills. Then you could crank them up and have the corps play like it's a #### endurance contest. Demand and execution are not mutually exclusive. Corps directors and their designers need to understand their level of talent (MM's) and know how far they can take them in terms of demand. If a show is within the range of an ubertalented corps, it might not be in the range of a less skilled corps. Cadets are very talented but IMO in 2009 the design was over their capability to perform (some might suggest that it was beyond any corps capability to perform). Then what do you have....a show that flings human bodies around for the sake of demand and it just never gets clean...it never could. So finding the balance at the edge of a specific corps abilities to excute cleanly is where the individual design should remain. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 (edited) Sometimes when I read this stuff I think that some of you on DCP would be happy to see the corps all on 150 treadmills. Then you could crank them up and have the corps play like it's a #### endurance contest. Demand and execution are not mutually exclusive. Corps directors and their designers need to understand their level of talent (MM's) and know how far they can take them in terms of demand. If a show is within the range of an ubertalented corps, it might not be in the range of a less skilled corps. Cadets are very talented but IMO in 2009 the design was over their capability to perform (some might suggest that it was beyond any corps capability to perform). Then what do you have....a show that flings human bodies around for the sake of demand and it just never gets clean...it never could. So finding the balance at the edge of a specific corps abilities to excute cleanly is where the individual design should remain. Lol, tough to argue with that. Of course...that isn't the only issue here, but its always nice to agree on something Edited August 1, 2011 by euponitone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nilla Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 The biggest problem with this topic on DCP is that many posters believe that "demand" means "fast" or "large step size". It doesn't. ABSOLUTELY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesBry Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 Having read BDUFLS's quote from DCI's website, I am more convinced than I have ever been that DCI judges haven't read their own guidelines. "...triggering aesthetic responses..." There are shows that trigger responses and shows that don't. I don't see scores that reflect that. I think that both the Effect judges and the Performance judges are judging the same thing. At least that's what seems to be reflected in the scores I've seen. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tez Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 (edited) So many people on here think that judges should have exactly the same tastes and preferences as the general DCI fan. This is simply ridiculous. Just because the general public thinks something is more "effective," doesn't mean it is more artistically effective in the way DCI defines effect. If it was, then DCI effect judging would be nothing more than a popularity contest. Personally I have a much bigger emotional response to the Blue Devils' show this year (and last year) than the Cadets' or Cavaliers' shows. I ask myself... If I can be "affected" more by them, then why can't the judges also be? So what if the crowd golf claps? I think they are awesome and have an extremely engaging show that "should" connect with the audience on many levels. It's not BD's, nor the judges fault that it doesn't. Also..... I read every day on here about the "good ole days" in the 1980s and prior of drum corps...... and to me of all the shows this year.... the Blue Devil's may resemble that era more than any any other. The arrangements are great.... they flow really well (not as much hack n' slash as previous years or many other corps), and the emphasis on the show is squarely on great melodic music. Many have called BD's visual design "easy." So..... nearly all would agree that 1980s visual designs were much easier than today's..... and if that era was so great... why can't BD's show get the love it deserves? And in relation to that..... people also complain constantly that drum corps has become too much of a "visual idiom," and that there's not enough emphasis on the music.... yet many seem, to love BD's music, but not like the show because of the visual. Well, if cubes, poles, and good ole park 'n blows keep you from enjoying this awesome show, I think the over-emphasis on visual is actually in your own head. Edited August 1, 2011 by Tez 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 So many people on here think that judges should have exactly the same tastes and preferences as the general DCI fan. This is simply ridiculous. Just because the general public thinks something is more "effective," doesn't mean it is more artistically effective in the way DCI defines effect. If it was, then DCI effect judging would be nothing more than a popularity contest. Personally I have a much bigger emotional response to the Blue Devils' show this year (and last year) than the Cadets' or Cavaliers' shows. I ask myself... If I can be "affected" more by them, then why can't the judges also be? So what if the crowd golf claps? I think they are awesome and have an extremely engaging show that "should" connect with the audience on many levels. It's not BD's, nor the judges fault that it doesn't. Also..... I read every day on here about the "good ole days" in the 1980s and prior of drum corps...... and to me of all the shows this year.... the Blue Devil's may resemble that era more than any any other. The arrangements are great.... they flow really well (not as much hack n' slash as previous years or many other corps), and the emphasis on the show is squarely on great melodic music. Many have called BD's visual design "easy." So..... nearly all would agree that 1980s visual designs were much easier than today's..... and if that era was so great... why can't BD's show get the love it deserves? And in relation to that..... people also complain constantly that drum corps has become too much of a "visual idiom," and that there's not enough emphasis on the music.... yet many seem, to love BD's music, but not like the show because of the visual. Well, if cubes, poles, and good ole park 'n blows keep you from enjoying this awesome show, I think the over-emphasis on visual is actually in your own head. Well, I cant quite agree that the Blue Devils arent at some fault for the way the audience reacts to them (it's been a pretty consistent pattern since 2008), but you do at least bring some interesting points that are a little different than the usual crap flying back and forth in this debate...particularly with regard to the visual vs music idea, and how it pertains to previous decades.... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zig zig ZAG Posted August 1, 2011 Author Share Posted August 1, 2011 I don't have the judging sheets but here is a description from DCI: A lot more emphasis on quality, musicianship, and artistry than on demand. As it should be. BDUFLS et al, Sure, those are the DCI judging guidelines, and I was waiting for someone to quote them. Thanks for the citation. They're the problem, and one of the reasons attendance is down, I believe. You say the guidelines emphasize quality, musicianship, and artistry more than demand. I'd be willing to bet that you've either played or heard many instrumental concertos. If not, I highly recommend it. What, then, does "virtuosity" mean? Virtuosity = High Demand + Artistry. Without the demand, or with less demand, ain't no virtuoso, joe. I fell in love with DCI because I saw athletic, musical, and design virtuosity. Judges seemed to reward that. In the last decade, I see something different. I want to be blown away. I want to say to myself "How the heck did they do THAT?" I want to see virtuosity in every sense of the term. I don't want to see design sleight-of-hand and clever playing to the too-narrow DCI judging criteria. Why too narrow? Because they even build in to the "system" of judging "criteria" if you read them carefully an out that seems to downplay, or even exclude, "virtuosity/demand": the wording of the performance criteria that evaluate how well the musicians are playing their music "within the spectrum of visual and musical demands" can be interpreted by any judge to imply "within THIS PARTICULAR CORPS' spectrum of visual and musical demands" At minimum, the criteria so deeply bury the criterion of demand that it is relegated to, well, fodder for discussion forum speculation. Too bad. But majority rules - corps directors want it that way, because not every corps wants to push the envelope as well as innovate. So, as I said in the first post - aim lower, hit the target, get rewarded. Ho hum. So we have reruns of the 80s "innovations". That's not innovation. Nor is it virtuosity. Nor does it put more people in the bleachers. Virtuosity-less judging criteria: reminds me of Vonnegut's Harrison Bergeron. Try, but don't try too hard. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 From an old time lurker, a question, not rhetorical by the way: Why do we think that "demand" is among the most important things the judges consider? If we can't even agree on what is "demanding", why do we think the judges should either? If they don't, then all this debate about whose show is easier, who parks and blows, who does or doesn't play when they march, who runs everywhere at 160bpm while playing and painting abstract impressionism en plein air, is truly pointless if not all in good fun. We all know it comes down to demand versus execution. Look, DCI has its judging system, for better or worse. If what's most important it aiming a bit, or a lot, lower and hitting that target perfectly, then I recommend every corps who eyes gold to do the same. Lower your standards, people. Demand is too hard to define, so let's just pretend its indefinable and meaningless. I recommend to every corps' honks to go out and claim whatever their corps is doing on the field is "demanding" enough, that critics are "haters", and that the product mainly has value based on the judges' scores. It's about winning. Then we can all keep talking past each other. Yours, JR Bob Dobbs part of the problem is demand HAS changed....in how corps apply it. For the longest time it was all about louder higher faster. Now, people, like BD are showing it's not all about louder higher faster. The key to demand and getting credit for it is showing you can do a skill well. You do not get bonus points for repeating same skill for 75% of the show. So yes, BD doesn't run all the time like a Cavies or Cadets. But they still show demand in other ways. Yeah it may not be what fans want to see, but it is meeting the criteria of the sheets. But we've been cinditioned to think louder higher faster is the end all be all....and it's not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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